Perrie Juran Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Dillon Levenque wrote: I'd never heard of Pentadee but since you asked so reasonably (there've been some rather unreasonable rants in this thread) I decided to take a quick look. You're in luck. It's made by the same company that makes Greedy Greedy, and they do have an upgraded version that can NOT be set for 'pay to play' and thus avoids coming under the Skill Gaming rules. They also state that upgrades are free to anyone who owns a table. The directions for getting all that done are in this wiki: http://karstenrutledge.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pentadee . ps: That company probably writes the clearest and most complete explanations and instructions I've ever seen from any SL creator or merchant. I think I should buy something from them just to support their work. You prompted me to look and I have to agree. That may be the most thorough documentation I have ever read anywhere by a Second Life Merchant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rae Bluxome Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 And thank you very much Dillon for looking into this! Pentadee is a lot of fun, it is exactly like Yahtzee. There are other Yahtzee-like games in SL, but Pentadee is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 irihapeti wrote: which law in your country do you think it would be appropriate for LL to break so that you can gamble ?? If your saying Linden Labs would be breaking laws so someone can "gamble" then what about the last seven years that they allowed skill games and permitted games that pushed way too far into the area of chance to grow forcing competition to get those as well. And what about some of those games such as PI games which becaues they put the word Tournament after the name on games where you get 20k in points pretty much randomly (many times its not even there). A game that is kinda sorta but not really multiplayer doesn't make it legal or within TOS. Bingo is a kind of tournament game. RL casinos have slot tournaments. I won't name names but more than a few individuals in the game industry in SL are not only perplexed, frustrated, and even sickened why blatant games of chance have been approved by PI games while they struggle to be compliant. Your question should be addressed to LL. There are quite a few laws they feel appropriate to break as long as they have the legal protection to dodge the bullet of responsibility. They are happy to if they can and have profit off them. Many of these changes are nessessary. Many of those changes should have happened 7 years ago and there is no excluse for LL not to have even tried to do so. ESPECIALLY before they got rid of the 18 and older requirement to be in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: The more I read complaints the more befudled I am getting. What is so difficult for people to understand that there are laws LL has to comply with? And that because of the complexity and variety of the laws they need a Policy that may in some cases appear to be stricter than the Laws. What is so hard about this? Most of the laws LL has to "comply with" are 7 years or older. Also LL has games that pushed way to far into chance approved on their approved game list. Any game on that list gives the impression that it has Linden Lab's blessing. A couple of the game that are approved on that list they might as well have slot tournaments approved on there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If the table does NOT have a pay to play option you are legal. If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home. The creator must be licensed to create skill games, the game itself must be licensed and located on a gaming sim and the owner must be licensed as an operator. On November 1, LL will start enforcing the policy. They may remove it, and possibly suspend or ban your account if your game is illegal and you are not a licensed operator. No one knows how they will go about enforcing the policy. They could just do it by responding to an AR, or they could be actively looking for illegal games on the grid. If I were you I wouldn't take a chance if the table has a pay to play option. I would remove it from your home. You may want to contact the creator to see if they have updated the card table and removed the pay to play option from it. Whether the update will be free or not is up to the creator. This is false. read the FAQ. I would agree with contacting the owner on updating a game but the FAQ makes it clear freeplay is fine even with pay to start options. Also LL has approved very illegal games already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Pay to play and pay to start are not exactly the same thing. You are correct, pay to play, which is really pay to start is ok as long as the starting fee is (instantly?) Returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: Pay to play and pay to start are not exactly the same thing. You are correct, pay to play, which is really pay to start is ok as long as the starting fee is (instantly?) Returned. It is a nominal fee (ie L$1) which is refunded immediately. Only games that were made to pay to play have this pay and refund to start the game option to avoid making additional game start routines. "Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy." The policy clearly states in several places that freeplay are not within the scope of the policy " Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If the table does NOT have a pay to play option you are legal. If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home. The creator must be licensed to create skill games, the game itself must be licensed and located on a gaming sim and the owner must be licensed as an operator. On November 1, LL will start enforcing the policy. They may remove it, and possibly suspend or ban your account if your game is illegal and you are not a licensed operator. No one knows how they will go about enforcing the policy. They could just do it by responding to an AR, or they could be actively looking for illegal games on the grid. If I were you I wouldn't take a chance if the table has a pay to play option. I would remove it from your home. You may want to contact the creator to see if they have updated the card table and removed the pay to play option from it. Whether the update will be free or not is up to the creator. This is false. read the FAQ. I would agree with contacting the owner on updating a game but the FAQ makes it clear freeplay is fine even with pay to start options. Also LL has approved very illegal games already. Nothing that Amethyst wrote in the post which you've quoted was inaccurate. Games which you trigger by paying a $L that's instantly returned to you, are considered free to play. While there's nothing wrong with pointing out that distinction, you could have done so without disingenuously claiming that what Amethyst wrote was false. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 "If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home" That is false but you already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Rae Bluxome wrote: And thank you very much Dillon for looking into this! Pentadee is a lot of fun, it is exactly like Yahtzee. There are other Yahtzee-like games in SL, but Pentadee is the best. If you like dice games but want something that offers more player choices check out Can't Stop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: "If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home" That is false but you already knew that. Within the wording of the policy, it's made perfectly clear that LL considers a game which you pay a $L, then instantly get it back, to be a free to play game... not a pay to play game. This fact is illustrated perfectly within the excerpt which you yourself quoted in your previous post. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with you pointing out the distinction between a pay to activate game and an actual pay to play game. But, it's entirely disingenuous of you to do so in order to accuse someone of handing out bad advice. If that's what it takes for you to feel better about yourself, then go right ahead. But you can't stop people from calling you out on your nefarious tactics once you've deployed them. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just stop waffling and being objectionable, Sorina. What Amethyst said was correct. She omitted the pay-to-trigger part but that's all. It's astomishing how we all have the same information on this topic and yet you usually end up arguing differently to everyone else. It's even more astonishing that everyone agrees on this little bit,, including Amethyst and you, and yet you still end up arguing with everyone. But, since you want to argue, here we go... 'Pay to start' is not 'pay to play'. If you look closely you'll see the clue (hint: look at the 3rd word of each phrase). If you need a deeper explanation, please ask. As always, I am willing to help you with your understanding of the skill gaming policy and english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: irihapeti wrote: which law in your country do you think it would be appropriate for LL to break so that you can gamble ?? If your saying Linden Labs would be breaking laws so someone can "gamble" then what about the last seven years that they allowed skill games and permitted games that pushed way too far into the area of chance to grow forcing competition to get those as well. what about the last seven years ?? so what only thing that matters now is that there is a new policy which is compliant with RL laws. thats a good thing that some previous operators are struggling to get going under the new rules sux for them. Is understandable tho that early movers are not going to help their competitors. Is business but in 12 months from now then is going to be a whole lot of operators. Them operators will be banking on it. Banking on being able to deliver a product/service to the players who want it. Is business if you struggling to get started then maybe can ask yourself why is that. It might be bc others already in the skill gaming business read what you write on here and go hmm! go into business with Sorina ?? Umm! nah! Maybe get more drama than what is worth when they just want to make some money no hassles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If the table does NOT have a pay to play option you are legal. If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home. The creator must be licensed to create skill games, the game itself must be licensed and located on a gaming sim and the owner must be licensed as an operator. On November 1, LL will start enforcing the policy. They may remove it, and possibly suspend or ban your account if your game is illegal and you are not a licensed operator. No one knows how they will go about enforcing the policy. They could just do it by responding to an AR, or they could be actively looking for illegal games on the grid. If I were you I wouldn't take a chance if the table has a pay to play option. I would remove it from your home. You may want to contact the creator to see if they have updated the card table and removed the pay to play option from it. Whether the update will be free or not is up to the creator. This is false. read the FAQ. I would agree with contacting the owner on updating a game but the FAQ makes it clear freeplay is fine even with pay to start options. Also LL has approved very illegal games already. The OP was not asking about a free play game, which I won't repeat the definition of since others have already defined it, but a specific card game that has an option that allows pay to play and win money. As Dillon so kindly found out,. she will need to update her table to the new version which doesn't have that option. You should read the post being replied to before jumping in with information that doesn't apply to the situation being asked about and confuses the issue. From the FAQ : What does Linden Lab consider a skill game? “Skill Game” refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. I do not want to ‘operate’ a game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout as a business; I just want to play it myself / with my friends. Can I still do that? Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Just a curiosity... Unless you've left a bit out of the LL quote, it's wrong. It says that "Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy.", but that's not true. Such a game would also need to be capable of accepting payment to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Just a curiosity... Unless you've left a bit out of the LL quote, it's wrong. It says that "Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy.", but that's not true. Such a game would also need to be capable of accepting payment to play. This is the exact type of inconsistency which people, such as Sorina, use to muddle the waters. Brace yourself, sweety... this isn't just a semi-colon issue. Any minute now, we're going to start feeling the earth shattering beneath our feet. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormie Windlow Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 And what about some of those games such as PI games which becaues they put the word Tournament after the name on games where you get 20k in points pretty much randomly (many times its not even there). A game that is kinda sorta but not really multiplayer doesn't make it legal or within TOS. Bingo is a kind of tournament game. RL casinos have slot tournaments. I won't name names but more than a few individuals in the game industry in SL are not only perplexed, frustrated, and even sickened why blatant games of chance have been approved by PI games while they struggle to be compliant Can I ask what these, perplexed, frustrated and sickened unknown individuals are struggling with? If they're struggling to become approved owners...that is not PIGames fault. If they're struggling to become approved creators.. that is not PIGames fault. If they're struggling financially trying to keep multiple sims going because in the past it was very lucrative then maybe they should rethink their business plan. Dotting a few less popular games around the sims is just death by a thousand cuts. PIGames created approved games by LL and that is a fact whether you accept it or not. Unfortunately for other gaming sim owners, these games happen to be the most popular in SL. Also unfortunately for other sim owners, it appears they are only available on his sims. Which as the creator is absolutely his right to do. There is no law saying you have to sell your creations to anyone if you choose not to. And think about it, do the other owners really wish to set up player v player system, as opposed to player v house which is how it was set up for years? I think those days are long gone. On a personal note, I feel more sorry for those that wish to play and can't because legal reasons prohibits them from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I suppose I shouldn't have posted that, knowing that Sorina is sniffing around again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Pay to play and pay to start are not exactly the same thing. You are correct, pay to play, which is really pay to start is ok as long as the starting fee is (instantly?) Returned. It is a nominal fee (ie L$1) which is refunded immediately. Only games that were made to pay to play have this pay and refund to start the game option to avoid making additional game start routines. "Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy." The policy clearly states in several places that freeplay are not within the scope of the policy " Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy." Just because right now the only games that have "play to start" (with the refund) happen to be games that also have "pay to play" without the refund (which do fall under the policy), this does not mean that someone in the future could not make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Sorbet Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Any game that requires payment, even if it is immediately refunded, should be treated with suspicion if it is not on a gaming region. There is no reason at all for a game to start from a money event, unless it has a pay-to-play mode. (Even pay-to-play games never really had a good reason to do this in freeplay modes, it was just laziness.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebug77 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Hi everyone. My question is if I decide to open an Arcade, where someone has to pay to use the games, but does not win anything, in return, is that still considered a "Skilled Game"? If I understand the definistion, as listed in http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy, " “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law."then an arcade, such as the ones in Real Life, where you go and pay $0.25 to play the game, but obviously, you don't win anything from, under this definition, it would be considered a skilled game, despite no Linden payouts. Do I understand this correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 for a game to fall under this policy it must meet all 4 criteria in your case it dont meet no. 3) + just on games where is pay to play and get no pay from the win. As a option then: leaderboards are good. Like can play for free. But if want to enter your high score on the public leaderboard then that be 1?L please. Pay or not as you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 What iri said plus... If the games you described can be set by the owner to pay, whether or not they are set that way, they do come under the policy and licenses are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Just a curiosity... Unless you've left a bit out of the LL quote, it's wrong. It says that "Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy.", but that's not true. Such a game would also need to be capable of accepting payment to play. Nothing was left out. That was an exact cut and paste from the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 firebug77 wrote:Hi everyone. My question is if I decide to open an Arcade, where someone has to pay to use the games, but does not win anything, in return, is that still considered a "Skilled Game"? If I understand the definistion, as listed in http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy, " “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law."then an arcade, such as the ones in Real Life, where you go and pay $0.25 to play the game, but obviously, you don't win anything from, under this definition, it would be considered a skilled game, despite no Linden payouts. Do I understand this correctly? You can operate pay games with no money to win and does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy You can operate free play games with money to win and does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy You can operate freeplay games with money to win that requires a L$1 pay in with immediate refund to play and has money to win. which does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy Any game that is freeplay has been repeatedly stated in FAQs, policies etc as Not within the scople of the policy. Older pay and win games used as free play are not within the policy. This is further clairified by games which require a instant refunded payment to start the game to get it to start. Only older pay and win games have start options. Disregard individuals making statements outside the facts which are the policies and FAQ. Are “freeplay” games in Second Life subject to the Skill Gaming Policy? Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy. What Does Linden Lab Consider a skill game? “Skill Game” refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Some are unaware or ignore for their own reasons, that there are a good number of games out there that had optional pay ins such as multiplayer games. This goes back 7 years. But arcade style play is perfectly fine. It is unclear if ticket redemption for prizes (teddy bears etc) would be within the scope but it likely might not be bothered with. Many laws include things of value which LLs own wagering policy does. If prizes are non transfer it can be argued that virtual prizes have no real value since they can not be sold and eventually turned into real currency. The win non money prizes is a known way for people to attempt to get around gambling laws. Most famously is Pachinko in Japan which allows such practices but many countries would not. Gambling for money is not legal in Japan so the winnner of the prizes walk across the street and sell them. This is wny the thing of value is found in many laws and policies like the wagering policy. But as sketchy as the new policies are I would suggest talking to an attorney on that if you intend to go with a ticket redemption approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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