Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yingzi Xue wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Yingzi Xue wrote: Crash Leclerc wrote: Yes Yingzi Xue looks like August will be a hot month ! I think SL has become such big megacity that our gouvernor Linden simply can`t follow what`s happening on the grid and doesn`t have the man power to enforce his own ToS... Put me in charge. I'll clean 'em right up... and I won't even need a staff under me. One objective person is all it takes. SL needs a person who will clean house, go visit sites around the grid, look at the scripts and make a determination. They won't do that though, they'll just put all the onus on you and if they get enough AR's or legal pressure they'll take action... maybe. The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st. This isn't addressed towards you but those in general that have a misguided book burning, communist party hearings, and witch trial mentalities in general as it relates to games of skill. Before anyone starts hurrassing people and such people should have ARs filed against them for both hurrassment, abusing the AR system and for wasting LLs time clogging the system with bogus ARs, they should first know what the hell they are doing and what the hell the policies are. If pay and win games or contests or game tournaments etc are on mainlaind then you can file ARs on those. BUT KNOW WHAT THE DAMN POLICIES! Skill game ARE being allowed. That has NOT changed one bit. They are just being confined to specific game sims AND those "Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed." source: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ If you file ARs against like crazy villiagers chasing after Frankenstien's monster against honest game places trying to abide by policies set forth by LL with games LL actively allowed for years and years then you would be acting out of malice, ignorance, and making SL a crappier place to be. Keep in mind that for someone to be against and hate games of skill they actively should equally hate Chucky Cheese where you play games and win tickets for prizes, carnival games and penny toss. Any sports where the participants have to pay entry fees. "The great ethical cleansing of 2014 happens August 1st" Sorry this is such a dangerous mindset and a blatant contradiction. Forcing one individuals ethics upon anothers is FAR from ethical. To be blunt it nearly sounds like the slogan that might be used by a blatant hate group if it was used in a different context. If you go back and look at my post, it was a joke, hence the tongue-in-cheek smilie. I even stated as such in the next reply. People are going to do what they are going to do, I am no in contact with anyone or part of any group. I won't be ARing unless a game reaches out and affects me personally, as it has in the past. I think you're being paranoid. I've only seen one or two people say they're going to AR in 770+ messages. Also, it doesn't matter if you apply as an operator if there are no games to apply for, so the odds that a game creator is going to apply and be approved by August 1st seems slim, therefore, one could conclude a game operator would be wasting their time applying for games that don't exist in the approved game list. They don't need to be approved. I been saying this for a while from second hand info but someone pointed out where it says this is the case to me. This is kind of why I tend to post the source and not just half a quote like some of the posters out there have been doing. "Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed." I agree SL made a mess with all this but they are allowing places that have an application in process to continue. But your response proved my point. People are not reading the policy at all that have hatred towards games and want to censor content from SL. People that are not reading the policy and commenting on things they just want to wish into reality are not helping anything and just are adding to the confusion in a part of the problem kind of way as opposed being part of the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yingzi Xue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: They don't need to be approved. I been saying this for a while from second hand info but someone pointed out where it says this is the case to me. This is kind of why I tend to post the source and not just half a quote like some of the posters out there have been doing. "Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed." I agree SL made a mess with all this but they are allowing places that have an application in process to continue. But your response proved my point. People are not reading the policy at all that have hatred towards games and want to censor content from SL. People that are not reading the policy and commenting on things they just want to wish into reality are not helping anything and just are adding to the confusion in a part of the problem kind of way as opposed being part of the solution. You would think games would have to be on the approved list before an operator could apply for approval, since approval of the operator hinges on the games being approved. What happens if the game creator never sends in an application? You can't just run on those games indefinitely. I would get some clarification before spending large sums of money on applying for games that may never be applied for, let alone approved. As per the Skill Gaming Policy: Operators Should you wish to operate a Skill Gaming Region in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) have received, and paid for, an Operator License from Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; (ii) will only operate Skill Games that have been approved by Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. My underlining above. As I said before I am of the opinion that these rules do not apply to racing. Note carefully the definition in the Policy. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:" While the races utilize InWorld objects, they are not implemented through them. When you talk about Zyngo or Greedy or what have you those games are implemented through the object. The role of the dice or deal of the cards is done by the object. In the case of racing, the participants pay an entry fee and the pot (purse) is divided among the winners. I do not believe that particular activity constitutes betting or wagering. When a golfer pays an entry fee to play in a tournament and wins that certainly is not considered "gambling" or "gaming" in RL." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yingzi Xue wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: They don't need to be approved. I been saying this for a while from second hand info but someone pointed out where it says this is the case to me. This is kind of why I tend to post the source and not just half a quote like some of the posters out there have been doing. "Provided that you submit an application before August 1, 2014, you may continue to operate games of skill while your application is being reviewed." I agree SL made a mess with all this but they are allowing places that have an application in process to continue. But your response proved my point. People are not reading the policy at all that have hatred towards games and want to censor content from SL. People that are not reading the policy and commenting on things they just want to wish into reality are not helping anything and just are adding to the confusion in a part of the problem kind of way as opposed being part of the solution. You would think games would have to be on the approved list before an operator could apply for approval, since approval of the operator hinges on the games being approved. What happens if the game creator never sends in an application? You can't just run on those games indefinitely. I would get some clarification before spending large sums of money on applying for games that may never be applied for, let alone approved. As per the Skill Gaming Policy: Operators Should you wish to operate a Skill Gaming Region in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) have received, and paid for, an Operator License from Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; (ii) will only operate Skill Games that have been approved by Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; LL definitely blundered into all this in a very keystone cop kind of way so yes it is a big stupid mess. But LL says they will allow those that apply to continue to operate if those games are not approved then the operator will have to remove them. But yes the policy was written by a bafoon. It says operators just need to apply and will be allowed to operate on one hand and they need to use approved games. Operators also submit games to be approved for their use and need a legal opinion on each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. My underlining above. As I said before I am of the opinion that these rules do not apply to racing. Note carefully the definition in the Policy. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:" While the races utilize InWorld objects, they are not implemented through them. When you talk about Zyngo or Greedy or what have you those games are implemented through the object. The role of the dice or deal of the cards is done by the object. In the case of racing, the participants pay an entry fee and the pot (purse) is divided among the winners. I do not believe that particular activity constitutes betting or wagering. When a golfer pays an entry fee to play in a tournament and wins that certainly is not considered "gambling" or "gaming" in RL." the new polices are on games of skill NOT games of chance which are not allowed. There is a separate older policy called the wagering policy. It does allow for games of skill such as a race car game and always has. But with the new skill game policy such activities are restricted to gaming sims and will require a legal opinion and have to go through the approval process. Why would one game of skill be excempt over another. In world races operate on in world vehicles. It doesn't matter if the fee is paid direct or through an object. Racing is a game of skill. in a race participants pay or wager the entry fee. Racing is defnitely affected. Its not a loophole to pay direct, or into a tip jar or board etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yingzi Xue Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 What's ironic is just a few posts ago, outtaspace just admitted that the games have a portion of chance. Something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yingzi Xue wrote: What's ironic is just a few posts ago, outtaspace just admitted that the games have a portion of chance. Something to think about. Games can have a portion of chance. Backgammon is the classic example and it has been proven to be a game of chance dispite the dice rolls in a court room. In chess who gets the white pieces and goes first can be chance as well early on games in SL were shown to LL that was the case as well. experienced players do better on average. If games in SL are not skilled enough is a different debate and I do agree in the last couple years that some have gone too far. But they went too far and LL actively allowed them to. The games that went too far were clearly in wide view and most certainly were ARed a few times. In the past what LL allowed and did not allowed actively shaped the skill game industry in SL. These new policies are are necessary to clean up their own mess. They just aren't doing a good job of it obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. My underlining above. As I said before I am of the opinion that these rules do not apply to racing. Note carefully the definition in the Policy. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:" While the races utilize InWorld objects, they are not implemented through them. When you talk about Zyngo or Greedy or what have you those games are implemented through the object. The role of the dice or deal of the cards is done by the object. In the case of racing, the participants pay an entry fee and the pot (purse) is divided among the winners. I do not believe that particular activity constitutes betting or wagering. When a golfer pays an entry fee to play in a tournament and wins that certainly is not considered "gambling" or "gaming" in RL." the new polices are on games of skill NOT games of chance which are not allowed. There is a separate older policy called the wagering policy. It does allow for games of skill such as a race car game and always has. But with the new skill game policy such activities are restricted to gaming sims and will require a legal opinion and have to go through the approval process. Why would one game of skill be excempt over another. In world races operate on in world vehicles. It doesn't matter if the fee is paid direct or through an object. Racing is a game of skill. in a race participants pay or wager the entry fee. Racing is defnitely affected. Its not a loophole to pay direct, or into a tip jar or board etc. I'm not a lawyer here so I do want to be clear that these are my laymans opinions. You are correct, skill is involved in racing, but that does not make it a "skill game" under the definition. And as far as InWorld racing is concerned, there was never a "loophole" they operated under. There was never a prohibition in the Original Wagering Policy against this activity to begin with. In fact the Original Policy specifically stated "This policy only applies to wagering games that involve an element of chance," and then gave a long list of examples that I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could apply to racing a car InWorld. Again, looking at the new policy, “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object," I don't see where the race is being implemented through an InWorld object the way Skill Games are. Additionally, I have never heard of an entry fee to participate in a sport contest referred to as a 'wager' and as such it is not gambling. I don't think there is any loop hole here and I think the language is very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Ceriano Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Keep in mind that for someone to be against and hate games of skill they actively should equally hate Chucky Cheese where you play games and win tickets for prizes, carnival games and penny toss. Any sports where the participants have to pay entry fees. Hate is a bit too strong of a word, but I will say that I very much dislike shelling money out for each of these activities. I find them all akin to sticking dollar bills down the g-strings of the male dancers at my local strip joint for the chance to fondle their usually rather, sizable genitalia, whether it be through what little fabric they're wearing or not. That being said, I wouldn't dream of denying those who seem to derive some sort of pleasure from such activities (and, in some cases, don't at all mind watching while) their doing so. As such, you won't find me ARing anyone because of this new policy. ...Dres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. My underlining above. As I said before I am of the opinion that these rules do not apply to racing. Note carefully the definition in the Policy. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:" While the races utilize InWorld objects, they are not implemented through them. When you talk about Zyngo or Greedy or what have you those games are implemented through the object. The role of the dice or deal of the cards is done by the object. In the case of racing, the participants pay an entry fee and the pot (purse) is divided among the winners. I do not believe that particular activity constitutes betting or wagering. When a golfer pays an entry fee to play in a tournament and wins that certainly is not considered "gambling" or "gaming" in RL." the new polices are on games of skill NOT games of chance which are not allowed. There is a separate older policy called the wagering policy. It does allow for games of skill such as a race car game and always has. But with the new skill game policy such activities are restricted to gaming sims and will require a legal opinion and have to go through the approval process. Why would one game of skill be excempt over another. In world races operate on in world vehicles. It doesn't matter if the fee is paid direct or through an object. Racing is a game of skill. in a race participants pay or wager the entry fee. Racing is defnitely affected. Its not a loophole to pay direct, or into a tip jar or board etc. I'm not a lawyer here so I do want to be clear that these are my laymans opinions. You are correct, skill is involved in racing, but that does not make it a "skill game" under the definition. And as far as InWorld racing is concerned, there was never a "loophole" they operated under. There was never a prohibition in the Original Wagering Policy against this activity to begin with. In fact the Original Policy specifically stated "This policy only applies to wagering games that involve an element of chance," and then gave a long list of examples that I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could apply to racing a car InWorld. Again, looking at the new policy, “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object," I don't see where the race is being implemented through an InWorld object the way Skill Games are. Additionally, I have never heard of an entry fee to participate in a sport contest referred to as a 'wager' and as such it is not gambling. I don't think there is any loop hole here and I think the language is very clear. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy Where are these cars people race if they are not inworld? " I have never heard of an entry fee to participate in a sport contest referred to as a 'wager' and as such it is not gambling." These new policies AGAIN have nothing to do with gambling. If your paying to play some version of mario cart in SL and there is money to win then your playing a game of skill. Skill Game is more a SL term. I know this all sucks but even things like a chess tournament are covered by this. If you have a pay and win racing game then you best go through the application process and get a gaming sim. The same states that do not allow games of skill played in their states for money would not have some exception for mario cart races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Dresden Ceriano wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Keep in mind that for someone to be against and hate games of skill they actively should equally hate Chucky Cheese where you play games and win tickets for prizes, carnival games and penny toss. Any sports where the participants have to pay entry fees. Hate is a bit too strong of a word, but I will say that I very much dislike shelling money out for each of these activities. I find them all akin to sticking dollar bills down the g-strings of the male dancers at my local strip joint for the chance to fondle their usually rather, sizable genitalia, whether it be through what little fabric they're wearing or not. That being said, I wouldn't dream of denying those who seem to derive some sort of pleasure from such activities (and, in some cases, don't at all mind watching while) their doing so. As such, you won't find me ARing anyone because of this new policy. ...Dres No reason to be effing digusting on a public forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: Ariaah wrote: Can you please answer my question. Are fantasy sports such as car racing, where no profit is made by the sim, and winning is 90% luck included in this craziness? As far as i know, car racing is legal in all states and internationally. A response is appreciated as the limiting of these pretend sports will negatively impact a huge part of the SL economy. Thank you Depends what you are calling fantasy sports. If its something like Fantasy football where you draft RL players and such it hasn't been allowed since 2007. "This policy is not designed to provide you with legal advice regarding the legality of specific gambling activities in your jurisdiction. It is not a substitute for legal advice, either. Rather, to ensure that Residents comply with generally applicable laws, which do not permit wagering on games of chance or sports betting, and to comply with the rules of credit card associations, Second Life's policy is to prohibit inworld gambling activities." But if you mean virtual sports as in participants racing in SL built vehicles then those would be confined to gaming sims and would have to be approved IF racers have to pay an entry fee and and can win money or really prizes which is covered under the wagering TOS. My suggestion might be to team up with a gaming sim about hosting those activities but the game itself would still need to be approved. Your right these polices will have a significant impact on the SL economy in a big way. There still will be games and game places where you can pay and win but mostly it will be the big places that stay. Clubs trying to get by with a few side games to cover sim costs etc will have to adapt. My underlining above. As I said before I am of the opinion that these rules do not apply to racing. Note carefully the definition in the Policy. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object:" While the races utilize InWorld objects, they are not implemented through them. When you talk about Zyngo or Greedy or what have you those games are implemented through the object. The role of the dice or deal of the cards is done by the object. In the case of racing, the participants pay an entry fee and the pot (purse) is divided among the winners. I do not believe that particular activity constitutes betting or wagering. When a golfer pays an entry fee to play in a tournament and wins that certainly is not considered "gambling" or "gaming" in RL." the new polices are on games of skill NOT games of chance which are not allowed. There is a separate older policy called the wagering policy. It does allow for games of skill such as a race car game and always has. But with the new skill game policy such activities are restricted to gaming sims and will require a legal opinion and have to go through the approval process. Why would one game of skill be excempt over another. In world races operate on in world vehicles. It doesn't matter if the fee is paid direct or through an object. Racing is a game of skill. in a race participants pay or wager the entry fee. Racing is defnitely affected. Its not a loophole to pay direct, or into a tip jar or board etc. I'm not a lawyer here so I do want to be clear that these are my laymans opinions. You are correct, skill is involved in racing, but that does not make it a "skill game" under the definition. And as far as InWorld racing is concerned, there was never a "loophole" they operated under. There was never a prohibition in the Original Wagering Policy against this activity to begin with. In fact the Original Policy specifically stated "This policy only applies to wagering games that involve an element of chance," and then gave a long list of examples that I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could apply to racing a car InWorld. Again, looking at the new policy, “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object," I don't see where the race is being implemented through an InWorld object the way Skill Games are. Additionally, I have never heard of an entry fee to participate in a sport contest referred to as a 'wager' and as such it is not gambling. I don't think there is any loop hole here and I think the language is very clear. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy Where are these cars people race if they are not inworld? " I have never heard of an entry fee to participate in a sport contest referred to as a 'wager' and as such it is not gambling." These new policies AGAIN have nothing to do with gambling. If your paying to play some version of mario cart in SL and there is money to win then your playing a game of skill. Skill Game is more a SL term. I know this all sucks but even things like a chess tournament are covered by this. If you have a pay and win racing game then you best go through the application process and get a gaming sim. The same states that do not allow games of skill played in their states for money would not have some exception for mario cart races. You seem determined to ignore the definition, "a game implemented through." Really, the races I am talking about, the racers bring their own cars to the competition. And as far as your contention about States having no "exemption" for Mario cart races, just for the record it costs $4300 to enter a car in an official Nascar Sprint for the oppertunity to win the purse. No pay, no race. But at this point I'll just leave it at agreeing to disagree. I don't think I'd have any more to add to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yingzi Xue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sorina, you seem like a nice person. I empathize with what you're going through right now. As I've said before in the thread, I like how you've set up your place and I don't envy what you're having to go through. I can see you're passionate, frustrated and are looking for a sense of direction. I know my posts haven't helped and I'd like to apologize, because I can see you are hurting through this. I hope you find the answers you seek and find a way to continue what you love to do in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valareos Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 I would just like to clairify if I understand this entirely, as well as give my specific circumstance to see if I am indeed compliant. 1: As I am not a US resident, and can not comply with the application requirements, I am uneligible to be an Operator. 2: As I am not an operator, I am required to remove any games that have a pay to play option. This means any game that can be potentially set to pay to play or has an optional betting component.. I can not simply set the game to free play, or turn off the betting option in settings. 3: Any game that does not require lindens to play is allowed, even if they pay out lindens. (covers most of the traffic generating games) 4: Using tokens as a "replacement" for lindens is allowed, if, and only if, those tokens are not transferrable between players, and can not be converted to linden, or objects that can be sold for lindens. I am allowed to charge for the initial purchase of said tokens under this system. (this becomes a donation system, NOT a gambling system) If an official can say yes or no to these points, it will clear up a lot of confusion. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Obviously I'm just a resident like you, but LL has always taken the view that if you have to buy chips (or anything) to play a gambling game that's equivalent to playing it for L$. See Linden Lab Official: Policy Regarding Wagering in Second Life. So I would think they'd take the same view of buying chips to play a game of skill. If you don't actually need the chips to play it and win prizes on the same basis as people who do buy the chips, that might be different, but if you're required to buy them to win cash prizes, I'm pretty sure LL will think that's the same as having to pay cash directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valareos Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 you are right on that of course, Allow me to clarify, that point is that there is NO cash prizes being awarded, nor items that can be traded in for cash. Example would be winning more tokens to continue playing, but have NO way of withdrawing those tokens, nor can you transfer them to another player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 If you want to risk blatantly running a game of skill in violation of LL's policy feel free and risk losing your sim and being banned. Implement only means "to fulfill; perform; carry out". It is implemented through race cars and whatever method you use to keep track of pay ins, boards etc. I for example can't run a chess tournament with pay and win options by saying hey everyone brought their own pieces. Its down right nutty to assume a race game is exempt and a game of chess is not. Again this are with no doubt policies on games of skill which there is zero question race games are. If I could do the same I would rez a race track tomorrow in my sim but I am not intersted in violationg SL policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Yingzi Xue wrote: Sorina, you seem like a nice person. I empathize with what you're going through right now. As I've said before in the thread, I like how you've set up your place and I don't envy what you're having to go through. I can see you're passionate, frustrated and are looking for a sense of direction. I know my posts haven't helped and I'd like to apologize, because I can see you are hurting through this. I hope you find the answers you seek and find a way to continue what you love to do in SL. Umm no not hurting at all, your completely imagining that. It's also a common tactic to try to show your on an imagined higher ground. I have tons of options atm given I am connected to all kinds and forms of games not just pay and win games. I just came from a big skill game meeting earlier and there are plenty of options. I am just trying to clear up confusion as a few others are trying to spread it. There is a nutty perception this is only addressing solo skill games. This affects all contests and games of skill. If it didn't they would have posted those excemptions. There is an odd delusion that these policies are the banning of games of skill or really specific types of games of skill. The policy is simply red tape so LL can continue to allow certain pay and win game of skill without being held accountable. From that meeting it was very clear LL is blatantly refusing to answer questions or clear up any confusion. This forum is pointless unfortunately because LL is refusing to communcate with their customer base and one of the larger generators if its overall income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorina Garrigus Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Valareos wrote: I would just like to clairify if I understand this entirely, as well as give my specific circumstance to see if I am indeed compliant. 1: As I am not a US resident, and can not comply with the application requirements, I am uneligible to be an Operator. 2: As I am not an operator, I am required to remove any games that have a pay to play option. This means any game that can be potentially set to pay to play or has an optional betting component.. I can not simply set the game to free play, or turn off the betting option in settings. 3: Any game that does not require lindens to play is allowed, even if they pay out lindens. (covers most of the traffic generating games) 4: Using tokens as a "replacement" for lindens is allowed, if, and only if, those tokens are not transferrable between players, and can not be converted to linden, or objects that can be sold for lindens. I am allowed to charge for the initial purchase of said tokens under this system. (this becomes a donation system, NOT a gambling system) If an official can say yes or no to these points, it will clear up a lot of confusion. Thank you 1: You do not have to be a US resident to apply. I talked to several European based individuals that are already in the application process. 2: As far as I can tell freeplay games should be ok. But it is not clear or specificed if such games have to be fixed to do so. If you attempt to do so I highly recommend posting multiple signs declaring these games are freeplay only. On some games there is a pay to start but it refunds it immediately option. The best solution would be to contact the creator of the game and ask for a fixed freeplay game that accepts no pay ins but just pays out. 3: The game from what I gather can't both pay in and pay out. 4: Tokens for replacement will not work. This has been done before in various ways with previous full gambling loophole gambling systems. They will not last and will likely be removed by LL. It is no different than going to a vegas casino and buying poker chips. LL won't respond to its customers or make efforts to resolve all the confusion. But a loophole token system definitely will not fly. I wouldn't even try it. If it is purely freeplay for traffic generation reasons then it should be ok but request games that are set with no pay in options at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: [...] I am just trying to clear up confusion [...] If that's true, then the best you can do is leave the thread alone, because your myriad of quite lengthy posts does nothing for anyone who is looking for answers except cloud it all for them. Your motives may be good but, since just about everyone disagrees with you on some points, and since you are flat out wrong at times, apparently prefering to actually cause confusion where there is none, your points get discussed and it clouds things for people. In other words, your myiad of posts in the thread has almost certainly had the affect of spreading the confusion that you seek to clear up. ETA: If Dresden and I agree, as we have in this thread, you can bet you house plus your life savings that it must be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valareos Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Your missing the point of the token idea..reason most token systems fail is there is a system to convert BACK to lindens, which isnt allowed. and they way the wording is, a machine cant accept lindens AND pay out lindens.. But it can do either or.. (qualifying AND statement) An object that may take lindens and not pay out lindens would be paying a lucky dip, and getting a prize that is no transfer. No im not advocating getting aroudn the system, I got a sim that uses an internal currency with NO gambling involved, but still may fall astray to the rules if wording isnt carefully observed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yingzi Xue Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Sorina Garrigus wrote: Yingzi Xue wrote: Sorina, you seem like a nice person. I empathize with what you're going through right now. As I've said before in the thread, I like how you've set up your place and I don't envy what you're having to go through. I can see you're passionate, frustrated and are looking for a sense of direction. I know my posts haven't helped and I'd like to apologize, because I can see you are hurting through this. I hope you find the answers you seek and find a way to continue what you love to do in SL. Umm no not hurting at all, your completely imagining that. It's also a common tactic to try to show your on an imagined higher ground. I have tons of options atm given I am connected to all kinds and forms of games not just pay and win games. I just came from a big skill game meeting earlier and there are plenty of options. I am just trying to clear up confusion as a few others are trying to spread it. There is a nutty perception this is only addressing solo skill games. This affects all contests and games of skill. If it didn't they would have posted those excemptions. There is an odd delusion that these policies are the banning of games of skill or really specific types of games of skill. The policy is simply red tape so LL can continue to allow certain pay and win game of skill without being held accountable. From that meeting it was very clear LL is blatantly refusing to answer questions or clear up any confusion. This forum is pointless unfortunately because LL is refusing to communcate with their customer base and one of the larger generators if its overall income. I was being sincere in my post. I agree with everything you said about the games still being allowed to exist if approved, thus it's not truly banning in the typical sense. It is, however, banishing "games of skill" off the mainland and onto specific regions, which has the same effect as being banned if you spend all of your time on mainland; the typical SL avatar will never see these games again unless they seek them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outtaspace Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 That depends on how you interpret the word chance.. chance is not just using a random number to decide. Everything you do, chance through unknown variables could affect the outcome. Continuing on the earlier examples of car racing in SL, although it is not "implemented via a (single) inworld object", i feel it would still fall under the skill gaming rules, if pay in and pay out are permited. Spectators betting on which driver will win, is gambling and not allowed. Drivers paying an entry fee to a race with a L$ prize, use their RL skill to control their car better than the other competitors to win the prize. So this should be sufficent to pass as skill gaming.. However, as pointed out by Yingzi Xue, in my last post i stated "completely dependant on skill, extremely little to no chance involved in the result of the game", although the outcome of the race is dependant on your skill as a driver, there are still factors involved outside of your control. There is a chance another driver may be more skilled than you, there is a chance the SL lag monster will freeze you up for 10 seconds, there is a chance your internet connection may drop mid race. Each of these will effect the outcome of the race. So is any game possible that has absolutely zero element of chance to it in any form.. i dont think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Linden Lab Posted July 29, 2014 Author Community Manager Share Posted July 29, 2014 UPDATE: the deadline has been moved to September 1, 2014 (previously was August 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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