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Thomas Galbreus wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I don't see any recent news about SL, at all. Good, bad or indifferent.

But that would be typical of an enterprise that is seen as a mediocrely successful porn service.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Ebbe has already said that adult content will be allowed in the new platform. I suppose we won't be seeing you there.

I've been in SL longer than some CEOs though. (No offense EA.)

ETA:
And in EA's defense I'd like to point out that he said it before he had the chance to read my arguments
. ;-)

... Right. Because I'm sure Ebbe and his team are sitting there going, "Crap, Thomas doesn't think we should have adult things in the new platform!! We need to rethink this guys, he is a major player in SL. If he goes, we will lose everything."

You really do need to adjust your meds.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote

:But that would be typical of an enterprise that is seen as a mediocrely successful porn service.

Your obsession with porn is taking on weird proportions.

Actually, since you don't seem to grasp the distinction between porn and sex, I say there's actually surprisingly little porn in SL. There's sex furniture, for sure, and various erotic attributes; but porn? Hardly any. There are probably some TV's out there that may support porn tapes (and I doubt that business is doing well on a larger scale), but that's pretty much it.

Then there's ppl dressing sexy in SL, Kinda like in real iife. You need to come to grips with that. People trying to attract other people... OMG! On that note,

“What holds the world together, as I have learned from bitter experience, is sexual intercourse.” -- Henry Miller

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Thomas Galbreus wrote:

ETA: And in EA's defense I'd like to point out that he said it before he had the chance to read my arguments ;-)


... Right. Because I'm sure Ebbe and his team are sitting there going, "Crap, Thomas doesn't think we should have adult things in the new platform!! We need to rethink this guys, he is a major player in SL. If he goes, we will lose everything."

You really do need to adjust your meds.

And that after I had used a smiley (which I rarely do) to help you detecting the self-irony. Of course I know the discussion is rather academic - concerning SL - after the CEO made such a statement.

But as pointed out before, Philip Rosedale may also be reading here! ;-) <-- Tadah.

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kiramanell wrote:

I say there's actually surprisingly little porn in SL. There's sex furniture, for sure, and various erotic attributes; but porn? Hardly any. 

Porn is the depiction of sex, so as soon as sex furniture is used in SL and someone sits in front of a screen watching it, it's porn. Unlike porn with real actors, real sex is actually not involved.

 

I know the majority of activities in SL is non-porn (otherwise I wouldn't still be around), but we are talking about the public reception of SL.


kiramanell wrote:

Then there's ppl dressing sexy in SL, Kinda like in real iife. You need to come to grips with that. People trying to attract other people... OMG!  

You don't read this thread, do you? I wrote:


Thomas Galbreus wrote:

I guess no one is deeply offended if avatars dress sexy, that's not what we are talking about.

It was actually one of my antagonists who desperately disputed that by drawing in child avatars.


kiramanell wrote:

“What holds the world together, as I have learned from bitter experience, is sexual intercourse.” -- Henry Miller 

Which would be bitter indeed, if only because intercourse is not the most exciting erotic activity if you ask me - and not necessarily misogynic, but not the most promising way to achieve a female orgasm for sure.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

M tried it back in 2009, when they set up Zindra and moved all Adult stuff off the Mainland proper.   You weren't around then, I think, but LL were saying, in terms, that this was why they were inconveniencing us Adult Content creators so much, to attract new customers who had told LL that they'd be flocking to SL if Adult Content were less visible, and in the event it was a complete fiasco.    The brutes had lied!  They didn't turn up

 

I think it was a half-hearted step and probably too late, SL had already been profoundly stigmatised in the public eye. That's why I think the successor should also not have "Second Life" or something similar in it's name.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:


I think it was a half-hearted step and probably too late, SL had already been profoundly stigmatised in the public eye. That's why I think the successor should also not have "Second Life" or something similar in it's name.

Yes, the stigma was already there, and I agree on the name. It would be better if the name was something you do or neutral, and not something you have – like a Second Life.

The only way they could have cleaned it up at the time was to create completely new mainland and declared all the existing adult because it was littered with adult content throughout. It would of course have been disruptive to many, but nothing like SLv2 will be.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

Porn is the depiction of sex, so as soon as sex furniture is used in SL and someone sits in front of a screen watching it, it's porn.

 


You think that sort of thing is happening a lot? I mean, people using sex furniture, whilst others are watching over their shoulders, looking at their screen? Apart from being rather far-fetched, I would say that happens nearly never. So, if that is your definition of porn in SL, then we can safely conclude there's as good as no porn in SL.

Or did you mean the avi itself sitting in front of his screen, using the furniture? Then it's definitely not porn, either. Camming aside, SL mostly offers a third-person view (or, overall, a 'behind-the-back' perspective). That third person is still the avi itself, of course. So, unless you were taping your sex act, to watch back later with another person maybe, merely having your eyes on your screen, whilst having sex in SL, does not constitute watching porn. No more than having sex in RL, and using your eyes directly, is watching porn.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

A virtual world, on the other hand, can only prosper beyond just a niche if it offers a rich variety of content and people can be open about using it. If a virtual world gets identified with porn content, people won't be a lot more eager to tell their friends, parents, colleagues or neighbours about using it than they are eager to tell them about the site they found that deals with the fetish they are craving - even if they are more into real porn (or into real erotic activity) than into pixel porn so wouldn't use that part of the virtual world anyway.

Sexuality is not a 'niche.' All those friends, parents, colleagues or neighbours, they are having it too. And your assumption that a virtual world can somehow not thrive, unless it's devoid of Adult content, is based on nothing. Rather, it stands to reason that the most successful virtual world will be one that mimmicks the real world the best. There's no reason, whatsoever, to believe a stodgy Mickey Mouse world, controlled by a bunch of prude American puritans, would be what people want.

Of course, if you're as biased as you are, and you keep telling those friends, parents, colleagues or neighbours, "Please, join me in this porn-laden den of inequity called Second Life," then they might indeed not follow. However, a person less obsessed with sex would just tell those folks about a great virtual world, in which you can go shop, build to your heart's content, dress up as spiffy and sexy as you want, and even enjoy the occassional moment of human intimacy -- you know, like in RL -- then I'm sure people would be a lot more enthusiastic.

Perception, indeed, ironically, is everything.

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Rayzer Haggwood wrote:

Not sure who started this thread changing over to porn but all I can say is if someone doesn't like adult content then don't go to adult sims. Problem solved.

 

My point exactly. :) You have your MP filters, and can get your own private island (or be on a region that is non-Adult).

And whilst I'd like to point out again that I have no interest in Adult content myself (a few erotic statues I own despite, maybe), I feel no need to moralize, whatsoever, and ruin it for others.

I'm European; I believe in freedom, and making up my own mind about what I can see or not. I don't want someone forcing their own narrow morality on me and others. If it's not illegal what ppl are doing, then more power to 'em! And if that means I too can occassionally strap on some sexy boots, and dito outfit, and go clubbing in peace, then all the better.

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This is going into some repetition loops now. "Use filters" - "Doesn't change the stigma people associate with SL" - " Use filters" etc.


kiramanell wrote:


Thomas Galbreus wrote:

Porn is the depiction of sex, so as soon as sex furniture is used in SL and someone sits in front of a screen watching it, it's porn.



You think that sort of thing is happening a lot? I mean, people using sex furniture, whilst others are watching over their shoulders, looking at their screen? Apart from being rather far-fetched, I would say that happens nearly never. So, if that is your definition of porn in SL, then we can safely conclude there's as good as no porn in SL.

Or did you mean the avi itself sitting in front of his screen, using the furniture? Then it's definitely not porn, either. Camming aside, SL mostly offers a
third-person
view (or, overall, a 'behind-the-back' perspective). That third person is still the avi itself, of course. So, unless you were taping your sex act, to watch back later with another person maybe, merely having your eyes on your screen, whilst having sex in SL, does not constitute watching porn. No more than having sex in RL, and using your eyes directly, is watching porn.

Any depiction of sex seen by someone is porn, of course also if the owner of an avatar activates sex furniture in SL, that's not different from pushing the play button on some porn video site. You really think a court would follow your argumentation that since it's your avatar, it's you, and not a depiction? And you really think people caming on sex depictions is a rare occurrence in Zindra?

But the exact amount of porn in SL doesn't matter anyway. The stigma did not come from anyone counting the occurences.

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'Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal. Pornography may be presented in a variety of media, including books, magazines, postcards, photographs, sculpture, drawing, painting, animation, sound recording, film, video, and video games. '

Source: Wikipedia.

 

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kiramanell wrote:

"Any depiction of sex seen by someone is porn."

 
Too ridiculous for words.

Now here's what's really gonna bake your noodle, later on. By your definition, everytime you see a display of sexuality in SL... you're watching porn! You perv!
:P


Don't ever go to the zoo.

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You are actually wrong on this because:

Your avatar is a representation of yourself. As long as the avatar is under your control, it's doings are a mirror of your own mind – the avatar cannot do something on its own. (there is a slight depart there if you let the avatar try an animation you never have seen before, and in that situation your avatar actually preceeds your mind, but they are almost in sync.)

So you cannot call this porn. You might, perhaps in some cases call it masturbation, but it is still not porn. 

Furhter, if you have a partner you interact with in SecondLife, the partner's avatar is a representation of the other person's self. 

If your interaction with a partner happens in settings we would say fall inside norms of society, it is not porn even if the interaction is between representations of the two parties selves. 

If you and your partner's avatar sat on a  bench in a park kissing, it is not porn, but a normal socailly accepted action. 

It is only when the interaction of the two parties venture into what would socially be concidered porn, it should be concidered porn in SecondLife too. 

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

'Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal. Pornography may be presented in a variety of media, including books, magazines, postcards, photographs, sculpture, drawing, painting, animation, sound recording, film, video, and video games. '

Source:
.

 

So, if an escort in SL is just going through the motions but isn't even paying attention to what is on the screen, is it still porn? What if you have two people whose avatars are pixel bumping but each one is in reality reading facebook or checking their emails, making dinner, or what have you... is it still porn then?

What about people who don't get their jollies from SLex, but do it to make their partner happy?

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

 You really think a court would follow your argumentation that since it's your avatar, it's you, and not a depiction?

Actually, yes. You are held accountable for your actions online. If you engage in sex in SL with an avatar run by someone that is under age you can and possibly will be held accountable for YOUR actions. If your avatar griefs a sim over and over YOU will be held accountable by LL and banned. If you are laundering money through our avatar, YOU will be taken to court and held accountable. "Oh, it was my avatar, not me..."

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

'Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal. Pornography may be presented in a variety of media, including books, magazines, postcards, photographs, sculpture, drawing, painting, animation, sound recording, film, video, and video games. '

Source:
.

 

I won't argue over the definition of pornography, but I do wonder if you're stretching the definition of "subject matter", which is defined as "the subject represented in a debate, exposition, or work of art" (Google) or "information or ideas that are discussed or dealt with in a book, movie, etc." (Webster).

Interactions between two consenting adults in private, or in a venue designed for such activities would not be considered "subject matter". It becomes subject matter when made available more widely. Yes, people can cam into adult SL venues, but the existence of RL peeping toms has not caused reasonable people to consider sex in the bedroom pornographic.

There are more than 10,000 people signing up for SL every day. So any argument that SL's purported sleazy reputation has hampered enrollment must explain that away. Unfortunatlely, more than 10,000 people leave every day, and I expect that's because the experience here (including sex) isn't quite what people had in mind.

Your argument parallels that of "sexting". The nature and availablity of text messaging makes sexting seem inevitable, doesn't it? Would you advocate companies taking measures to prevent sexual content in text messages? I'm sure there are people who would pay a premium for that. I'm also sure there are far more people who wouldn't touch such a service with a ten inch pole.

;-).

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Yes, people can cam into adult SL venues, but the existence of RL peeping toms has not caused reasonable people to consider sex in the bedroom pornographic.

Now that you mention it, I think it was a few years back already that LL made it so you can prevent people from peeping at you on your parcel: yes, they can still cam in and watch the furniture, lol, but not see the avi's themselves.

Actually, I would agree with Thomas on several things, if he hadn't lost all nuance. For instance, I *do* believe that many forms of sexual expression, even when generally deemed consensual, are still rooted in some sort of (past) abuse. Like is that hooker really selling herself freely? Or has past abuse conditioned her into thinking sex is the only way for her to gain value in life, and is the jon just taking advantage of that? See, you gotta be careful with that.

What I cannot do, however, is blanketly call all expressions of sex porn, or see all 'powerplay' in sexuality as slavery, or an assault of human dignity. It's like The Boy Who Cried 'Porn!' If you do so at every expression of sex you witness, then no one will take you seriously when real porn rears its head.

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Folks, if you spent so much time in SL that you think your avatar is you - even you in your bedroom - you should take a break. With your avatar you are depicting things, and that gets broadcast over the internet, which means as soon as you engage your avatar in pornographic activity, you are distributing porn - not on a scale as large as with a website because of sim limits, but still.

 


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


If you engage in sex in SL with an avatar run by someone that is under age you can and possibly will be held accountable for YOUR actions.


And your action in that case is confronting the under age person with depictions.

I only have some detailed knowledge of German law. According to that, exposing pornography over the internet is already a criminal offense if it is not technically assured that under age persons can not gain access. This means you must not know that minors have access, it is sufficient to know that no technical precautions that safely prevent minors from gaining access are in place.

Since SL has no age verification that conforms with German law, sexual acticvity in SL can put a German user in danger of getting prosecuted. I would rather not advise German users to rely on theories about some sex animations possibly being mild enough to be not considered as pornographic.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Your argument parallels that of "sexting". The nature and availablity of text messaging makes sexting seem inevitable, doesn't it? Would you advocate companies taking measures to prevent sexual content in text messages?


In Germany providers should either prohibit pornographic content in the TOS or implement a rigid age verification. I don't see a difference between pictures, videos, animations or text. If the service consits only of text messaging between usually two people and lacks public chat rooms, the problem that the service may become stigmatised when too permissive seems less likely because the public may not notice what's going on.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Your argument parallels that of "sexting". The nature and availablity of text messaging makes sexting seem inevitable, doesn't it? Would you advocate companies taking measures to prevent sexual content in text messages?


In Germany providers should either prohibit pornographic content in the TOS or implement a rigid age verification. I don't see a difference between pictures, videos, animations or text. If the service consits only of text messaging between usually two people and lacks public chat rooms, the problem that the service may become stigmatised when too permissive seems less likely because the public may not notice what's going on.

If the publc hasn't noticed what's going on, why is "sexting" in the lexicon?

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


If you engage in sex in SL with an avatar run by someone that is under age you can and possibly will be held accountable for YOUR actions.


And your action in that case is confronting the under age person with depictions.

 

I only have some detailed knowledge of German law. According to that, exposing pornography over the internet is already a criminal offense if it is not technically assured that under age persons can not gain access.

At least this explains why you see everything in terms of pornography. In Germany, indeed, suppllying hardcore pornography to a person under 18 is an offense, and websites hosting pornographic material within Germany must comply with very strict rules about verifying that viewers are over 18 (even just giving your passport number does not suffice).

However, lest ppl get derailed by your obsession with pornography, trying to 'engage in sex in SL with an avatar run by someone that is under age,' as Drake1 put it, has nothing to do with pornography. It's called child solicitation, and can be defined as 'An attempt to convince a minor to engage in a sexual act or conduct.' An entirely different law.

Also, sex in SL, per se, is not pornography, so your entire argument is fail. Pornography is generally seen as "Sill photography or video footage that contains explicit and (often) intensive depictions of sexual acts." Engaging in (legal) sex with someone in SL is, therefore, not pornography at all. It might, for instance, be the case if you were watching a sex tape *within* the virtual world. Yet you can only ever be said to be watching 'video footage' of something when it pertains to watching a second-hand recording of an event: operating your own 'live' avatar in SL is *not* considered 'video footage' in that context.

But, you will just say that any sexual depiction is pornography; so, arguing with you is actually rather pointless.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

Folks, if you spent so much time in SL that you think your avatar is you - even you in your bedroom - you should take a break. With your avatar you are depicting things,
and that gets broadcast over the internet
, which means as soon as you engage your avatar in pornographic activity, you are distributing porn - not on a scale as large as with a website because of sim limits, but still.

 

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


If you engage in sex in SL with an avatar run by someone that is under age you can and possibly will be held accountable for YOUR actions.


And your action in that case is confronting the under age person with depictions.

 

I only have some detailed knowledge of German law. According to that, exposing pornography over the internet is already a criminal offense if it is not technically assured that under age persons can not gain access. This means you must not know that minors have access, it is sufficient to know that no technical precautions that safely prevent minors from gaining access are in place.

 

Since SL has no age verification that conforms with German law, sexual acticvity in SL can put a German user in danger of getting prosecuted. I would rather not advise German users to rely on theories about some sex animations possibly being mild enough to be not considered as pornographic.

Has any German user ever actually been prosecuted under these laws that so concern you?

I always wonder about the evidential problems the prosecution would face in this sort of case.   Normally, the prosecutor has to be able to say to the court, "This is what we say the defendant did, and here is our evidence that he did it".     Where, unless someone was filming it, is the evidence, other than, perhaps, a chat log?   Normally, the prosecution can show the court an image or film and say, "This is what we found on the defendant's computer and we invite you to find that it is  pornographic."   What does the prosecutor show the court in a case like this?   

Because of my RL job, I am reasonably familiar with the forensic techniques employed to prove someone has been looking at images of sexual abuse online, or watching videos, even though he's not downloaded them and saved them to disk.   I have no idea where you'd start looking for visual evidence of what someone's been doing in SL, though, and I doubt it exists unless he's been taking screenshots or filming it.   The texture and object caches on his machine wouldn't be sufficient -- they simply store assets; they don't assemble them into a comprehensible  image.

 

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