Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Vivienne Schell]

"This one will take more time for us to figure out"

Are you sure that you are the CEO of a company which didn´t figure THIS out after 11 years?

:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Gavin Hird]

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Zena Zemlja wrote:

... it will have to have the current Firestorm features to begin with. 

---

Not to diminish the effort of the Firestorm developers, and their users are very pationate about it, but I would advice to the contrary when developing a new and/or improved viewer for the following reasons:

 

The current Mac viewer (any of them) totally and fundamentally departs from Apple's user interface gudielines and how a modern Mac application is supposed to behave. Mac users have to un-learn everything they have learned in other Mac applications ranging from standard keystrokes, to file upload behavior, menu placement, use of system widgets, window behavior and integration with core OS X system services such as sound, email, web browser, twitter, facebook, photos...

By making a modern Mac viewer employing Apple UI experts in the process, one will possibly make the biggest gains in making the viewer simpler to use, ensuring consistency with operating system conventions and standards, and segment the viewer for simple operations like navigating the world efficiently, interacting with own avatar, communicating with others, and expert operations like building and managing estates and land.

One will thus also better prepare the viewer for tablet use because OSX and iOS shares more fundamental behaviors between such diverse user environments than any other combination (touch vs traditional PC.)

The finding and experiences one gains in this process can be applied to the other PC and tablet type environments one wants to offer the viewer in. if you in addition want to be on consoles, the experiences may not translate to the same extent simply because the system widgets and conventions are less developed on these devices.

Just my $0.02  

[Zena Zemlja]

Gavin just wrote the sl viewer would not have worn tab and now you say it has no derender. I am so stupified by reading all the features the original viewer does not seem to have: how do they know what they're wearing, and how do they make a lovely snapshot with stuff being in the way and not being able to derender it? I truly hope they fix these things for the new viewer.

If anything, we need more features, not less. More than sl plus all tpv's have now.

Oh, and now we are at it: I want the ability back to change the Z-axis of the avatar, it is really necessary to change it for some shoes to not float on air or sink into earth. 

[Imagin Illyar]

The main viewer doesn't have derender?  I couldn't live without derender.  I use it every day in my work.

[Shannon Danick]

What a strange trip this has been, in this strange thread. We start by talking about the "slipped news" from Linden Lab....Next we go to a huge argument over Search functions of old and new...and we even get off track with child porn?!?!?

Wow.

ANYWAY......

I will play devils advocate for a moment...and this will surely not earn me any new friends.....

Linden Lab OWNS Second Life. As a functioning business located in the US, LL have a right to do with their product(s) as they see fit. Public opinion or outcry, is thier choice to listen or fall on deaf ears.

Back to normal now...

I think we have learned over the years, yes LL DOES listen to it's Customers, but only act on what they deem "best for business". Which is their right and frankly, we can do nothing about it.

Linden Lab is NOT a publicly traded company, so none of us legally own any shares. We should feel LUCKY that they even speak to us. And each of us should thank the Lindens for the past 11 wonderful years they have given us the Grid to call home. And lets not forget, they DID pioneer the Virtual Metaverse.

So, publicly bash SL and LL all you want.......just realize your anger-fueled comments certainly do not help issues.

I personally, will be here until the last lightbulb that is SL, goes dark. And yes Ebbe, I will lock the doors on my way out.

[Ebbe Linden]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

---

Drongle McMahon wrote:

"We will get the ability to upload custom skeletons (rigged meshes)"

Gaia, can you say where that comes from? In particular, do myou have any idea whether it applies only to avatars, or to non-avatar mesh? I am thinking about some ideas

discussed a long time ago

if we could access bones in scripts etc.

---

Drongle, did you just wake up? Why would custom skeletons only mean avatars? Plus, Ebbe mentioned that things in the new world will be made in much more efficient ways. I take this as meaning that we'll use bones instead of scripts to move objects.

---

Correct. Why just avatars?  

[Zena Zemlja]

I will honestly admit I only understand half of what you're writing, since I am not a technical person. It actually is a bit of a miracle I play sl, and it took me long time to figure out how to - don't get me started on my first day in sl, I really thought it was not for me and logged out for two weeks before I had the courage to come back and try again. But what I get from your post is that the new viewer should be compatible with all sort of computers and systems, which I think is a wise thing to do, yes. And if I may add, for all non tech people like me: whatever it is they will do with this new viewer, let them please make things easy enough for people like me to figure out how to use it. 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Really i use just about all the extra features FIrestorm has (except the RLV, which is not my thing) and love them all.  So in addition to what's been mentioned:

• I like that the numbers in the objects tab go out to more decimal places than the official viewer and the extra building tools
• I also use the commands in firestorm - for instance tp2cam, flr, gth<height> etc.
• The ability to use my own texture on raw prims i rez instead of standard plywood.
• The quickset of debugs and preferences and ability to customize them
•  Inworld legacy search which is faster, shows more options at a glance,the sort options, etc.  I realize that the search for the the world maybe a lot different and not compatible with this format but I hope you make search a lot better than it is now as web search is a massive fail IMO

I strongly suggest that you consult with the Firestorm team about their extra features and include as many of them as you can.

Regarding content transport, as you said creators may have to fix things to make them work int he new world.  That is understandable.  But it also means the average joe may not be able to port a lot of inventory over.

Creators will have to spend a lot of time fixing things too instead of creating new things and many will charge for this to compensate them for all the time and upload fees it will take either by making customers have to purchase the item again or pay an upgrade fee. Even if they are doing it for free I don't see how they will know who is in the new world and who will want the upgrade without it being a huge time consuming process  Some thought should be given as to how LL can assist.

I hopethat the new virtual world is a lot better and that the transition from SL to it is as painless as possible.  I also am glad you are communicating with us here about it and hope that you continue and make the process as transparent as possible.  Actually solicit opinions from users as much as you can.  The more input we have the more 'ownership'[ we'll feel we have in the new world.  That will convince more people to transition.

 

[Gavin Hird]

---

Ebbe Linden wrote:

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

---

Drongle McMahon wrote:

"We will get the ability to upload custom skeletons (rigged meshes)"

Gaia, can you say where that comes from? In particular, do myou have any idea whether it applies only to avatars, or to non-avatar mesh? I am thinking about some ideas

discussed a long time ago

if we could access bones in scripts etc.

---

Drongle, did you just wake up? Why would custom skeletons only mean avatars? Plus, Ebbe mentioned that things in the new world will be made in much more efficient ways. I take this as meaning that we'll use bones instead of scripts to move objects.

---

Correct. Why just avatars?

 

---

Custom skeletons for any mesh object is important – avatars regrdless of humanoid or other are a subset of this.

But also the ability to set morph targets for meshes can be equally efficient to create smaller movements for parts of meshes. The facial expressions of the current avatar are created with morph targets as are the hand movements. Facial expressions and characteristics may be more accurately expressed with (custom) morph targets in combination with bones, so I'll vote for both. 

[Mony Lindman]

OK so .. let's recap a little ...

According to Ebbe's last statements and his thankfully aknowledged answers to my questions , and in spite of his previous statement that "most of our inventory" will be ported, the situation looks in fact like this ( and please Ebbe, do correct me if i'm wrong ) :

- "Prims (TBD, but probably not as is)" . What does this mean ? GAME OVER for builders of homes, furniture and anything else made of prims

- "Sculpts (TBD, but not as is, but maybe converted to Mesh?)" . What does this mean ? GAME OVER for sculpt makers and for builders who used sculpts in their builds.

- "Avatars will be radically improved as well so a lot TBD" . What does this mean ? GAME OVER for skins and shapes creators plus other avatar components that are not mesh. If i understnd right , the avatars in SL 2 will be all MESH avatars , which will most probably wear skins made in highly professional programs like Maja and Co. and to which the present skin templates will not fit. Standard shapes also not.

And about system clothes i didn't even dare to ask under these circumstances ..

- "Scripts (major improvement, so will change)" .  What does this mean ? GAME OVER for scripters and their popular and widely spread systems like Xpose , MLP , Intan , AVsitter , nPose , CasperTech , BSM , (to name only a few) AND for the builders who use such systems in their creations.

- "Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)" . What does this mean ? GAME OVER for animators and for all content creators who use animations in their products: animated furniture , animated huds , AOs , furnished houses , dances , dance poles , BDSM and bondage animated items, etc.

The whole sex industry of SL will be not able to move their assets to the new world ! Because they are made of animations and scripts and BOTH will NOT PORT ! And I dont think I must remind you how important this sector is for the SL economy and how many people live from it.. and in it..

What's the use of saying that adult activities will be allowed in SL 2 when not even a simple sex ball can be ported there. Coz it contains animations and scripts..

So .. whats left? Mesh and textures. Wonderfull..

Oh yea .. and probably also LMs and notecards.. But the LMs you have now will be useless in another world and .. does anybody actualy make a living from selling notecards in SL ? If yes, please teach me, it looks like the only "business model" we can take with us in the new world ..

 

[Zena Zemlja]

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

The main viewer doesn't have derender?  I couldn't live without derender.  I use it every day in my work.

---

It's one of those things you really don't want to miss once you know what it can do for you. 

I really think it would be a smart thing to get all features from current viewer plus all tpv's up on the new platform, and then add some brand new ones to it that will blow us away in an huge aww. 

[Imagin Illyar]

Actually he's said that it's not likely that any direct inventory items will be able to be moved to the new grid, but that creators would be able to reupload some items (after tweaking) and redistribute to customers.  

It isn't game over for anyone unless they decide to move to the new virtual world, which no one is forcing them to do.  You do realize this is a whole new virtual world they are building not just an upgrade to SL? 

[Vivienne Schell]

"We should feel LUCKY that they even speak to us."

They do speak to "us" on their blog. And speaking to "us" is not communicating with "us". This is due to the basical problem that there is no "we" or "us". "We" are a bunch of hobbyist enthusiasts and a handful of professionals in a niche world thriving a niche business for an unbelievable variety of reasons and a wide variety of interests. "We" are neither organised nor is there any reliable common opinion or common, canalised interest, not even a common opinion on the most important issues in "our" niche. In fact, "they" can only announce something, but never really communicate with "us", cause "we" are not "we". "We" are lousy in politics, you know.

All "they" can do is trying to read "our" minds by some internal statistics and draw conclusions by internal surveys and try to make "us" happy customers somehow. Or conclude by reading the blogs and forums, which basically are biased, self centerd and mostly ignorant on common sense as "we" are (myself included) Or ignore all this and dictate what "they" think is best for "them" amd best for "us". because "we" are paying "their" bills and without "us" there would be no "them".

Mr. Altman seems to have an upright interest in communicating with "us". Or he tries to do so because he needs some kind of public feedback beyond what the statistics and surveys say. That´s fine, but it neither will make Second Life better and bigger nor will it make a "we" out of "us". And it certainly will not help with shaping this new project ahead.

So why should "we" be happy when a Linden posts something on the forums? I personally would prefer "them" to announce what the hell exactly "they" are up to, why and for what reason, which platforms and with which technologies and facts on the frecoming ToS. I´d prefer facts and a clear conception for the kind of "ok, kids roll your eyes in excitement now" wishiwashi posted by Mr. Altman lately. Phil Rosedale certainly did not sell Second Life to the initial investors only by telling them that he wants to make another Virtual Reality. And Second Life did not not attract millions of people only because Phil Rosedale told the public that this will be a "great" and "better" VR as the ones before.

But again, thats just "me" and my ignorant biased opinion, unfortunately i  share this opinion with the majority of "us" in the real life business world niche.

[Darkness Anubis]

---

DesperadoReprise wrote

Sy, the main problem is not the technical platform for Sanitised Life; it is that creators/vendors are going to be bankrupted prior to any migration because their customers - as they discover that there are no guarantees that anything they purchase from now on will be of any value in a very short time - are going to stop buying. They have already, if several reports are to be believed, and why should they not be.

The knock-on effect of this on the existing SL economy will be massive, as will be the consequences for LL's ability to fund the development of Sanitised Life. Any business plan (although somehow I doubt if one exists as yet) would have to be based on the redirection of existing profits from maintenance and V1 enhancement to V2 resources. But the profits, as explained, aren't going to be sustained, and by letting the cat out of the bag this early Ebbe has shot himself in the foot, because the Board are going to have to go running to third parties for money. And who is going to be interested? Nobody has been in the past five years, and every other attempt to offer a "better sl" has been a short-term commercial disaster

Of course creators are looking for reassurances that they might be able to bridge the trading gap technically, and many will be doing their utmost to try to bolster market confidence by offering unfounded assurances to customers.

I know that SL users are not known for their collective intelligence, but I don't think they are going to be taken in by the tepid and unprepared bluster currently issuing from an obviously disturbed - and apparently isolated - CEO.

Bottom line? I don't think SL is going to last long enough to support the development period of Sanitised Life. And the CEO certainly isn't.

"all you blood-thirsty bystanders, will you try to find your seats"

---

You are correct that there is a risk of consumers deciding not to buy be it clothing, land, objects etc. Realistically 2 years is a long time. I suspect what we are seeing right now is a slump. No one is going to stop buying anything for multiple years in anticipation of what is coming. Eventually they will see something and jump on it. Right now this is in the news so it is in peoples minds. 6 months from now not so much. Also remember that very few residents ever come to the forums or are members of groups that will continue to discuss this topic. Sales I really believe will pick up again. Of course, that is assuming this is not a typical summertime sales slump. I personally think it is a little of both.

 

------------------------------------------------

This is not particularly in response to the above.

We already have a fair idea what likely will go over will little trouble.

Mesh and textures: That tells me there will be little change in how those are handled. IF you make mesh objects/houses/landscaping as long as you have your original files (for whatever program you use) it should be easy for you to make any small changes and reupload.

Also there is a chance that your customers will be able to keep their mesh creations that you made. I would start designing in an upgrade path plan as you will have to redo any scripting in the new SL. Basically start thinking of a way the owner could prove they owned it in SL1 so that you can update them to the new in SL2. This is important for Mesh objects but also clothing since the clothing will probably have to be rerigged/weight painted. I can think of several ways to do this but I will leave the creation of your system to you. I think if you can honestly tell customers now that you are planning an update path to SL2 for any creations purchased after x date they will be much more likely to buy from you between now and SL2.

Animations, RIgging/Weightpainting will be broken. I think that is absolutely going to happen so plan on animations not crossing over. Bet that rigged mesh will go  over but be broken. I suspect this is because of radical changes to our avatars/skeletons. Animators if they are smart have their original files to tweak to whatever the new system is. It will take some time but should not be too horrible (yes I was an animator back in the day). Rigged clothing makers will have to use their original files and rerig them. Yes it will take time but it is doable.

Scripting will not go over. SOunds like a total change of language. Plan on no scripts going over. Builders will need to get up to speed quick on this so they can offer redone scripts to their customers asap when SL2 goes live.

Sculpties were a cludge to begin with. It was a placeholder for mesh which was not yet ready. Pull your sculpt maps into blender and convert to mesh and you are ready to upload to SL2.

It is going to be work for creators to get going but it is not impossible. A smart creator will be communicating with their customers to reassure them that what they buy today will be updated in SL2. If you can do that your sales should be just fine once the initial panic passes.

As a consumer I would be buying only mesh at this point. Were I not an animator I would buy animations from someone who reassures me his will be brought up to date (I haven't bought animations in years I just make what I need).

I don't think SL is dead yet. Fashionistas will always buy new stuff. THey change clothes faster than the weather changes in West Texas. People will play house. Stuff for that will sell. It is just going to take a bit for things to settle.

As someone who has been in SL for 10+ years I am rather looking forward to the changeover for the most part. It is bittersweet as this has been home for so long but the excitement of building a world again is just flat enticing to me. I do admit I am carefully watching LL in this. Like many who have been around a long time I tend to take a rather Ronald Reagan approach to LL ie "Trust but Verify." Seen too many things get too botched over the years to really be comfy with blind faith.

 

Just my 2L$ on it

[DesperadoReprise]

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Vivienne Schell wrote:

"This one will take more time for us to figure out"

Are you sure that you are the CEO of a company which didn´t figure THIS out after 11 years?

:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

---

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

I'm guessing

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Does that answer your question, Viv?

 

 

"maybe tomorrow"

[Innula Zenovka]

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Mony Lindman wrote:

 

 

- "Scripts (major improvement, so will change)" .  What does this mean ? GAME OVER for scripters and their popular and widely spread systems like Xpose , MLP , Intan , AVsitter , nPose , CasperTech , BSM , (to name only a few) AND for the builders who use such systems in their creations.

 

- "Animations will change (major mprovements as we don't currently do it the way it should be done)" . What does this mean ? GAME OVER for animators and for all content creators who use animations in their products: animated furniture , animated huds , AOs , furnished houses , dances , dance poles , BDSM and bondage animated items, etc.

 

The whole sex industry of SL will be not able to move their assets to the new world ! Because they are made of animations and scripts and BOTH will NOT PORT ! And I dont think I must remind you how important this sector is for the SL economy and how many people live from it.. and in it..

---

Speaking as someone who makes most of her SL income (which contributes a fair amout to my RL income) from scripting BDSM furniture and toys for her animator business partner, I have a particular interest in this. 

After initially cursing a bit, I feel reasonably enthusiastic about the future.   So long as we have sufficient time to learn the new animation techniques and scripting language, I see this as an opportunity to get in right at the beginning, exploring what we can do with what's now available.   We're going to be there at the start of a new market, each of us with (by then) at least eight or nine years' experience in making complex animated and scripted furniture.   I'll think about it nearer the time, but it strikes me that, rather than trying to port things over, we might well offer existing SL1 customers free equivalent products in SL2.    I'm excited about the prospects.  

Sure it's probably going to mean a drop in sales for a while, but I've never seen my SL income as something to rely on, and after that we're going to be in at the beginning of a sellers' market, offering people products that most of them are going to want to buy because, as you say, they can't port them over.   

 

 

[Mony Lindman]

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Imagin Illyar wrote:

Actually he's said that it's not likely that any direct inventory items will be able to be moved to the new grid, but that creators would be able to reupload some items (after tweaking) and redistribute to customers.  

It isn't game over for anyone unless they decide to move to the new virtual world, which no one is forcing them to do.  

You do realize this is a whole new virtual world they are building not just an upgrade to SL? 

---

Theoretically speaking you are right, both worlds could coexist, but practically .. when the new shiny world will be there, will not most CONSUMERS go there and spend their money in that shiny world ? Mostly the young ones..

And who will still make any advertizing effort to get new users in the old SL when the new shiny one is there ?

At this time im not concerned about the success of the new world but about the "termination" of the good old one ..

Of course everybody will ALSO go in the new world but, unlike consumers, content creators will have to start their business there from scratch! Some will make it , some will not .. coz not everybody is a Maya guru .. but in any case THIS WORLD .. is in "game over" mode ..

 

[Magnus Brody]

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Mony Lindman wrote:

.. does anybody actualy make a living from selling notecards in SL ? If yes, please teach me, it looks like the only "business model" we can take with us in the new world ..

 

---

Write poetry.

[Mony Lindman]

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Magnus Brody wrote:

---

Mony Lindman wrote:

.. does anybody actualy make a living from selling notecards in SL ? If yes, please teach me, it looks like the only "business model" we can take with us in the new world ..

 

---

Write poetry.

---

ok .. here i go :

 

- Linden Lab gimme a kiss

- "TBD but not as is"

 

.. would that sell ?

 

[Zena Zemlja]

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Magnus Brody wrote:

---

Mony Lindman wrote:

.. does anybody actualy make a living from selling notecards in SL ? If yes, please teach me, it looks like the only "business model" we can take with us in the new world ..

 

---

Write poetry.

---

 

I actually do write poetry and do sell them, either illustrated and framed or on a notecard, and yes, they do sell on notecards. You cannot make them no copy though, otherwise no one can read the notecard (something I never really understood about the permissions of notecards). But you can make them no mod and, if you wish so, no trans too. 

Who ever would have thought eight years ago when I registered for sl that my poetry would be a business to survive best all current plans and changes to come! :smileylol:

[Imagin Illyar]

They won't be closing SL until it isn't profitable anymore.  Why would they?  Yes, it will happen eventually but that's inevitable anyway - it's an 11 year old platform.  LL isn't the only company working on making a next-gen virtual world right now.  If they don't do this SL will be gone forever when everyone leaves for someone else's new shiny.  At least this way we will keep the spirit of the world we love and be able to move ahead with a platform that will give us another decade or so.

[Vince Rallier]

Okay,I know they will obviously keep sl open,how else will they fund the creation of sl2.But i'm not naive enough to think they will be able to share those funds between both worlds,the bulk of all funds will go to this new world being created.They will only do the bare minimum to keep sl running,they need it.

 When sl2 is able to support itself there is no doubt in my mind sl will be done.If i were the lindens I would probably be doing the same thing,but would've gone about it a bit differently.Their user base is aging,they need this new shiny to attract a younger revenue base.Is what all corporations go through,you lose one source of revenue,find a new one.

[Vivienne Schell]

"LL isn't the only company working on making a next-gen virtual world right now."

Who else does so? I mean, with nipples included?

:matte-motes-nerdy:

[Gaia Clary]

So, here is a short summary of what we (a few enthusiasts) think about migration from SL1 to SL2. Maybe this can take away some of the fear that we see flooding around since a couple of days.

Prims:

Are parametric

meshes

. That is: these meshes are defined by geometric parameters instead of vertices, edges and faces. From how these elements work i can imagine that some features might survive, others not. I have no idea if current features can be mapped to new features, but i guess that there will be at least a chance to get things ported "to some extent". However there might be better ways than trying to move prims over to SL2 as they are.

Sculpts:

Are

meshes

with a predefined flat mesh-topology (technically very similar to NURBS). And since they are regular meshes by all means, there is in principle nothing to worry about their migration to SL2, except their huge inefficiency (in most cases). The fact that they are cheaper than meshes regarding LI is not because they are more efficient but due to historical decisions.

Avatars

: are

meshes

with associated Riggs. And Riggs will become much more customizable than what we have today. Custom riggs will most probably make it already possible to transfer the current avatar to SL2 including its UV textures. Where it becomes tricky is when it comes to Morph shapes. If we get Morph shapes, then it becomes possible in principle to migrate the

legacy Avatar's

shape editor to SL2. Of course this highly depends on what capabilities the new system will have.

 

System Clothes:

Are textures basically. It might become possible to migrate system clothes into textures and from there it is no problem to get them into SL2. And finally put on a legacy avatar if desired. I bet this will be mostly a matter of license policies (extract textures from the system cloth items and trasnfer these to the new system)

Scripts

: will change dramatically i guess. So indeed scripts need to be mostly rewritten for the new system. So workload will come from here. But maybe that is not as bad as it sounds in first place.

 

Animations:

Depending on the format that will be used internally and for transport into SL2 it will be no big issue to transfer old animations to the new system provided you play them on legacy avatars (see above). I suspect the transfer format will be either BVH or FBX (and we are capable to convert .bvh and .anim to these formats for that purpose)

Also the fact that we will get NPC's will probably make the animators very excited. So i bet that many LSL based animations will be migrated to Bone based animations anyways ...

Currency:

This has already been answered: We will keep with Linden$. And that implies that the currency will remain stable during the transition phase... i believe...

I think that all questions about migration will be addressed and answered sooner or later by LL. How the migration will take place and how much effort tool makers will have to put into this, and how easy it will become for merchants and users... 

Of course there is no answer yet for all of this. But from general assumptions i am very confident that a lot can be one

[Imagin Illyar]

Off the top 2 big ones - HIgh Fidelity (Phillip Rosedale's new company) and Facebook/Occulus Rift has announced they are building a next-gen virtual world for a million+ people.  If LL doesn't do this now SL will be replaced by something that is completely foreign to us and we'd all be saying that they should have seen it coming and done something about it.