Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Prokofy Neva]

Every time this debate has been had over the years, you insist that you know more about it than anyone else, and your source of knowledge is an inside track to Linden staff. Leave aside the awfulness of that proposition -- that only Linden friends and insiders get to rise in search and that this is called "skill" -- what you keep failing to note is that you didn't have enough land to test your concepts across large enough samples.

My rentals groups literally had hundreds of parcels on dozens of sims, of all sizes, so I could see that first of all, indeed larger parcels did indeed do better. But there were other things related to ideological notions, perhaps tied to formulas of how an ad was written, whether it was a coherent sentence or just a string of key words -- those may have been deliberately punished. I had a test office parcel with one sentence "Our rentals are always refundable" that somehow got to the top in search constantly, even though it was a small parcel with little traffic and had only some freebies on it -- and even though in the rentals business, refunds are not something people search for necessarily. I know because I used to not use the word at all.

I had thousands of happy customers who put my parcels in their picks because they had some good and memorable experience there -- the picks were used as people's inworld story boards. And that's why some of them did well in search. They weren't paid for this or gamed in any way; they put them in willingly. But although this was an organic and genuine phenomenon, I was punished by having it removed because some top slots were gamed.

I myself, like numerous other people, used search/places to shop and explore and simply discounted the first 5-10-15 spots that were botted, gamed, paid for, Lindenized in some way by being mentioned on the blog. I simply ignored them, the way I ignored -- wait for it - the paid ads that first hit my eyeball at the very top of the Google page or the very top of the side of the page.

The Lindens messed up search for most people, business owners and customers. The economy never recovered.

[Prokofy Neva]

Well done!

[Derek Torvalar]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Phoebe Avro wrote:

I predicted Rod leaving LL two months before he did on these  very  forums^^

I would not be surprised if the current CEO gets booted within the same time frame

---

Is there a point to this utterly crass and obnoxious comment, beyond demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are completely insensitive?

Do people come into your place of employment, talk about you in the third person 

while you are there

, and predict that you'll soon be out of a job?

Good god, people . . .

---

I think she is saying she wants to put a fiver on August. ;-)

PS I put a C-note on October.

[Chic Aeon]

I have been thinking on this in that BROAD VIEW PLACE that I often go to. It doesn't relate to me accept minimally as I do have some scripts in some houses but the houses (mod) could work without them.

But since both scripts and animations will be new and different products (I love making poses in Blender like I did for  Cloud Party so personally hoping that is part of the new scenario) while they might port over will be in part broken. At least it certainly seems that way.

So content creator should they move to the new world will need to update those for the clients. SAYING they will do that will likely go a long way in making sales as time draws nearer. Only of course if they are willing. 

 

There will certainly  be things that we have and that are ported ( I am assuming here that this will be done FOR us as that seems the most likely scenario) over that wont work and that will never be fixed. Things that have been purchased by creators that have left the grid or from those that DON'T move to SL 2.0.

Hard to say at this point and certainly not a big issue  for me as while I have over 100 items on the marketplace some are embarrassingly old (and still sell which is a little embarrassing in itself)  but it may make more sense in some way start over on the new grid. Same name recognition but with new items.

I won't be expecting every content creator to give me new things with updated animations and scripts. That is asking way too much. I can't see any way around this really. A trade in program would only work with transfer items and many merchants went to copy items simply because of the redelivery issues.

Maybe a plan will emerge but this is something to think about for sure.

 

 

[LaskyaClaren]

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

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Derek Torvalar wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Amen. From what I have seen, you could not dream up a better CEO than the one we are fortunate to have now. 

All the crankiness --

that's just the SL public

that every merchant or club owner etc. deals with on a regular basis. 

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"Remember the masses man! If you do not they will catch up with you and trample you to death!" Harry Belafonte

"Matilda, she take me money and run Venezuela."

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You know, Derek . . . you and your multi-masked friend have spent an awful lot of time bitching that Ebbe (and LL in general) don't communicate enough with residents. The latter personage has, in particular, been shouting "I told you so" about the fact that Ebbe hasn't been here recently, talking to residents.

And now, when he 

is

here, actually providing real answers for questions, you both do your absolute best to scare him away by being rude and abusive.

Is this an attempt to produce a self-fulfilling prophecy?

---

You know Lasky, I am curious why you responded to this post addressed to Pam rather than the one I addressed to Ebbe?

I found Pam's remark about 'just the SL Public' somewhat disconcerting and condescending, hence my reply to her. You may have the most wonderful content the imagination can conjure but if the masses aren't there to enjoy it, and pay the freight, does it really matter? 

As to the reality of Ebbe's answers, well I am not as easily impressed as others. I have seen damage control before. I would hope that a CEO would have more mettle than to be skeered away by yours truly. Is it your impression that Ebbe is that insecure? I wonder why? But you are right, he is here. Finally.

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Honestly, Derek, I didn't pay much attention to which of the posts I hit "reply" to.

And i have no objections to the tone and content of what you say here. I'm not trying to "protect" Ebbe, and, no, I don't think he's going to run with his tale between his legs.

I just believe in the importance of civil discourse.

Except, evidently, where Phoebe is concerned, of course. ;-)

[Chic Aeon]

Not a general problem with sales. Mine are fine and normal.

[Chic Aeon]

I do have a question for Ebbe and THANK YOU for joining in the conversation. I believe that was an excellent move and is appreciated by many.

 

Has it been decided if folks will be able to be in SL 1.0 and SL 2.0 (I know that isn't an official moniker) and keep their inventories OR will they need to choose a version or make an alt to be in both?

 

 Editing as that may not have been clear from a reply from someone else. "IF a person wants to remain in SL 1 and also be in SL 2 will they be able to have the same inventories (at least as of the time of the move)  -- so similar to the beta grid, a one way copy. " TY.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

Has it been decided if folks will be able to be in SL 1.0 and SL 2.0 (I know that isn't an official moniker) and keep their inventories OR will they need to choose a version or make an alt to be in both?

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http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Linden-Lab-is-building-a-NEW-virtual-world/m-p/2758334#M185698

...Dres

[Prokofy Neva]

Ebbe,

I find it profoundly disturbing that you continue this discussion for days without answering the question I and other land owners have posed to you: what is the plan for compensation or transition of sims?

You answer about content, scripting, Linden dollars, but you don't answer about *the way in which you yourself make the bulk of your revenue* -- tier.

When land barons buy islands, they have a formula for when they can expect to make back their initial investment over time, sometimes it may take a year depending on whether they will have a niche community, high-end content, low-cost rentals, competing with the very oversaturated market.

Now, you might say it's not YOUR problem to worry about how individual businesses rise or fall in a separate "player" economy, and it's not your job to shield them from loss or hold their hand against the effects of normal market realities and fluctuations.

But hey, when YOUR COMPANY is what is going to cause a GIANT TSUNAMI in the market, you have to have a responsible policy. Such as the Lindens had on two occasions before -- and both times under pressure from a concerted land baron faction a) compensation for telehub land b) access to the grandfathered price for islands for a longer period. Originally, LL was just going to let people suffer their losses after ensuring that the top barons got a wink and a nod and figured out to move quickly from rental to sales of telehub land to avoid major devaluation. Originally, LL was going to just let it's own special friends on an SL Dev list get the old, lower price for older servers when it moved to a new generation of servers.

Both times, LL was forced to do the right thing and be fair and open and not close the market by having a policy that people were not massively screwed by its own actions.

So what's YOUR PLAN for the sims? I realize you may not be able for proprietary reasons be able to explain whether there will be stand-alone "simulators" or geographically contiguous simulators or homestead sims or whether there will be bubbles or cloud parties or holodecks or whatever. Understood. But, you know, a frame for content and avatar interaction -- whatever the form it takes -- will be the thing that you must provide the 1:1 or 1: to some fair formula compensation/transition for. Will you?

And it's not good saying, well, SL will be around for many years to come, so those who bought islands can make make back their purchase price and ease into the new world in an orderly fashion.

But that's absurd, because just like when there was the opening of SL and it drained out There and The Sims Online, and Open Sims drained out SL to some extent in some areas, so when SL2 comes out, there will be a stampede there by those who are most portable, and customers will simply ditch higher price rentals and go rent from the new land baron class that will be privileged to be first in your New Shiny because they will have the right hook-ups.

This happened on a large scale within SL when LL rolled out the cheap void sims that rapidly got massively purchased by land barons and massively overfilled until finally LL itself had to develop a new product and roll back the massive exploitation of its own too-cheap and low-capacity product. Until it did that, those who bought full-prim islands or mainland sat empty taking losses, or left SL.

So what's it going to be? Massive bad press for your brand again and loss of customers, or, as Mitch Kapor always said, masochism for the user base? Perhaps you can't count on the masochism of the user base this one last time.

Before Linden Lab itself helped to destroy Gaming Open Market, GOM in fact was our insurance against being screwed by game companies that banned us or took our stuff as it was a place to hold wealth or cash it out and transfer it to new worlds. If there were still GOM and other third-party exchanges, the transition in fact could be easier. But those were killed off deliberately to  make yourself a monopolist in the market.

Once again, YOUR OWN chief source of revenue comes from tier -- not your cut of content sales, not subscriptions, not necklaces and mugs and tablet titles. You know it and I know it. So why are we land owners the LAST people you are talking to here?

 

 

[Niecia Davi]

agree with this line of thinking.

 

[Niecia Davi]

 From what I read today about the upcoming new sl2 the scripting will change / prims will change and sculpts MAY be imported as mesh. This means dont buy anything that is prim/sculpt-based or scripted with LSL at this time they are trash and there will be NO PLACE in the NEW SL2 for them.  As it stands right now it would be like buying an old television set that does not pick up the new wavelength...useless...well useless in the near future...but means you buy it plan on trashing it.  Merchants might as well start giving prim/sculpt-based objects and LSL scripted objects away for free because Linden labs just rendered them useless.

[Chic Aeon]

I read that and have written about it but I don't see how it answers the question I mentioned. Thanks anyway.

[Gaia Clary]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

"We will get the ability to upload custom skeletons (rigged meshes)"

Gaia, can you say where that comes from? In particular, do myou have any idea whether it applies only to avatars, or to non-avatar mesh?

---

This is just a reasonable assumption. It seems to make a whole lot of sense to have custom skeletons and NPC's. Actually i see no reason why we should not get this. And i also can imagine the support for morph shapes as well.

So in theory it might even be technically possible that we eventually can upload an SL-1 clone with shape keys. why not ? But this IS pure speculation.

[Shannon Danick]

WOW.

I got as far as page 20-something-ish before I wanted to claw my eyes out....

But, this:

"I'm not sure what you are suggesting or asking. SL is donig great, it's better than it's ever been....."

I don't want to make waves for myself, since over the years, I had the pleasure of working side by side with several former Lindens...

That being said, I ask one simple question Ebbe. Prove to us that SL is "better than it's ever been", in regards to user numbers. Remember LL going out of it's way to hide the numbers from the public? I remember, very well. Make that database public again. Prove your word.

That is all.

Thank you Linden Lab for giving us SecondLife. And please, if you replace SL...do so in a grand fashion. Make our fears worth getting over.

~ Shannon

--||-

[Skygirl Kline]

I'd just like to say how happy and excited I am about this news. SL is an amazing product but its core graphics underneath the hood are circa 2002. There have been great improvements by LL and residents have done wonders with this platfom, but fundamental things such as the default avatar mesh, UV maps ect cannot be improved without breaking existing content and upsetting a lot of people..Far better to start again and work from bottom up. I'm sure we will be blown away by the new graphics engine, shaders and avatar quality. I always wished I had been at the start of SL in 2002, now I can be at the start of this it's going to be great!

[Gavin Hird]

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irihapeti wrote:

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

According to the law you cannot give away your IP rights in the form of a TOS.

The TOS can in many ways be seen as a one way declaration which makes it void. 

 

---

i dont think thats right. How you interpreting it

i make a song. I have to give the record company rights to reproduce/copy and distribute my song/content. 

 

---

What you describe here is a business to business contractual agreement that you are in a position to negotiate. 

In a business to consumer offering like Linden Lab's Secondlife is, the TOS is regarded a one way declaration because the consumer, in reality, has no way of changing the terms or renegotiate them. Because of this TOS must satisfy the minimum requirements of the law, in addition they must protect the consumer from casually signing away legal rights. 

As I said in a previous posting any material a consumer, in this case a Secondlife user, has created outside of SecondLife and uploads a copy of it for storage and rendering by the SecondLife runtime is by the law the intellectual property of the creator. The compilation of these elements is also the intellectual property of the creator. 

Some of the clauses in the TOS that people balk over has to do with how LL can handle these creations internally in their storage systems, moving them between machines, for rendering them to other users, for letting other users buy or use the creation, and for being able to take backup of the items.

This does not, however, mean they can be transferred to a new service for storage and rendering in the new service, unless the new service is an upgrade to the existing one (meaning the existing one goes away.)

What they also have done is making new provisions in the TOS retroactive where they essentially have given themselves the full IP rights to what is the user's IP.  This may - and I stress may, have been acceptable if the owner was given the option to retrieve a full backup of their creations and remove the existing copies fully from the existing system if they did not accept that change.  I cannot recall having seen any such options. 

[Bliss Zufreur]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

---

---

Again, I have not said there's any end coming. We have made no plans for any SL shutdown. None. 

We are simply working to make an even better product from the ground up. You will have plenty of time to evaluate it and decide.

Your identity and L$ will be the same for both so it will be easy to hop back and forth. 

 

---

Thank you Ebbe  ...this all sounds great to me   

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

I read that and have written about it but I don't see how it answers the question I mentioned. Thanks anyway.

---

In that case, I suppose I don't understand what you were asking... perhaps Ebbe will.

...Dres

[DesperadoReprise]

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

 We have made no plans . . . None

---

Yeah, I think we got that message loud and clear.

"now there's no time left"

[DesperadoReprise]

---

Ebbe Linden wrote:

---

Racheal Rexen wrote:

Hello Ebbe, thanks for taking the time to answer ours questions, My question is if the Adult Community will have a place in the new Virtual world? 

---

We have no plans to disallow anything that's going on in SL and is legal. We're proud of the freedom we offer. 

 

---

So you're going to allow consensual virtual sex between avatars of all ages, even apparent minors, operated by adults?

Because virtual sexual ageplay between consenting adults isn't actually illegal in any legislation I have seen.

And if you're going to make even one exception then your statement above is a misleading lie, and nobody should trust any commitments you make here; making Sanitised Life open to all ages would change what might - or might not - be considered "legal", so your answer is pretty meaningless anyway.

"face another showdown"

 

[irihapeti]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

---

irihapeti wrote:

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

According to the law you cannot give away your IP rights in the form of a TOS.

The TOS can in many ways be seen as a one way declaration which makes it void. 

 

---

i dont think thats right. How you interpreting it

i make a song. I have to give the record company rights to reproduce/copy and distribute my song/content. 

 

---

What you describe here is a business to business contractual agreement that you are in a position to negotiate. 

In a business to consumer offering like Linden Lab's Secondlife is, the TOS is regarded a one way declaration because the consumer, in reality, has no way of changing the terms or renegotiate them. Because of this TOS must satisfy the minimum requirements of the law, in addition they must protect the consumer from casually signing away legal rights. 

As I said in a previous posting any material a consumer, in this case a Secondlife user, has created outside of SecondLife and uploads a copy of it for storage and rendering by the SecondLife runtime is by the law the intellectual property of the creator. The compilation of these elements is also the intellectual property of the creator. 

Some of the clauses in the TOS that people balk over has to do with how LL can handle these creations internally in their storage systems, moving them between machines, for rendering them to other users, for letting other users buy or use the creation, and for being able to take backup of the items.

This does not, however, mean they can be transferred to a new service for storage and rendering in the new service, unless the new service is an upgrade to the existing one (meaning the existing one goes away.)

What they also have done is making new provisions in the TOS retroactive where they essentially have given themselves the full IP rights to what is the user's IP.  This may - and I stress may, have been acceptable if the owner was given the option to retrieve a full backup of their creations and remove the existing copies fully from the existing system if they did not accept that change.  I cannot recall having seen any such options. 

---

position to negotiate

i buy a copy of Microsoft Windows 8.1. I don't get to negotiate the Terms of how I can use it. I buy a Toyota car. I don't get to negotiate the terms of warranty. If I use it in a way that breaches the terms the warranty is null and void. etc, etc

+

Intellectual property

you do not give up your ownership of the IP that belongs to you. The LL ToS is quite clear on this

+

retrospective application

break it down

you make something. I buy a copy off you or you give it to me for free. You withdraw your property from the market and/or SL entirely. You do not get to withdraw my copy I bought/received from you. LL hold my copy for me. Is not yours. Is mine

the IP in the product I have might belong to you. The product belongs to me. Thats the law

+

break it down further

when you withdraw from SL. Delete everything off your parcel. and or any stuff on group owned/shared land which you no longer wish to share with others in the group . Relinquish/sell the empty parcel. Delete everything in your inventory. Leave your avatar dressed in the default outfit. Cash out any L$ you have or shove it in a charity vendor. Delete your account

and you done

what property remaining contains your IP? That which you sold/gave to others. Which is not your property by law

+

getting your own stuff out of SL (before you delete it) which you made which only you have and nobody else has a copy of

the LL ToS specifically says you can do this

[Gavin Hird]

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DesperadoReprise wrote:

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Ebbe Linden wrote:

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Racheal Rexen wrote:

Hello Ebbe, thanks for taking the time to answer ours questions, My question is if the Adult Community will have a place in the new Virtual world? 

---

We have no plans to disallow anything that's going on in SL and is legal. We're proud of the freedom we offer. 

 

---

Because virtual sexual ageplay between consenting adults isn't actually illegal in any legislation I have seen.

 

---

It may not be illegal per se, but some countries have very strict legislation on the depiction of ageplay involving minors even if there are adults behind the actors. This in itself is problematic even if the legal age of entry to SecondLife is at or above the age of sexual consent (not sure if that is the right term...) Mixing child avatars into adult situations and land my in itself incriminate the users of the system, and also the operator.

In a family oriented setting, having adults behind child avatars regardless how general the setting is, will probably create massive problems with authorities in most countries and will most likely result in regulatory intervention and negtive media exposure.  

[DesperadoReprise]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

The latter personage has, in particular, been shouting "I told you so" about the fact that Ebbe hasn't been here recently, talking to residents.

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The strategy worked, didn't it? You should be grateful that someone is playing bad cop to your good cop.

 

 

Although once he realises how little he is achieving, and reinforcing perceptions of his inadequacies, he will claim that he has better things to do product managing Sanitised Life, and disappear again, to resurface by the end of the year in an announcement that he has decided to give up the job so he can spend more time on the golf course.

"all you blood-thirsty bystanders"

 

[irihapeti]

DesperadoReprise wrote:

... virtual sexual ageplay between consenting adults isn't actually illegal in any legislation I have seen.

 

where I live depictions of it are. Which is what pixellations are. Not only are the actors guilty of a criminal act by depicting sexual ageplay so are the operators of the service which enables it

 

[DesperadoReprise]

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LaskyaClaren wrote:

 

And i have no objections to the tone and content of what you say here. I'm not trying to "protect" Ebbe, and, no, I don't think he's going to run with his

tale

between his legs.

---

So you really think Ebbe's postings are mere PR damage-limitation fabrications as well.

And that he is talking out of his anus.

Because it surely couldn't be a "typo" . . .

"found you out"