Avatar sizes

[Phil Deakins]

There was an interesting dicussion in another thread about avatar sizes as compared to RL people's sizes. Unfortunately it was all removed, perhaps because it was off-topic for the thread. I know it's an old chestnut but some things were posted in the thread that I thought were were very interesting - not only because I posted them :), but I think they are valid. So I'm starting a new thread for it. I may not be able to post much in it but I don't want to let it slip by.

 

The idea that the height of human avatars ought to me reasonably close to typical RL human heights. It's a view that is strongly held by a few people. It's well-known that the default camera position (a couple of meters behind the head) causes problems inside typical rooms in houses, so the rooms need to be larger than typical RL rooms. That in turn causes the furniture in the rooms to be larger and, therefore, avatars have to be taller or they'll look tiny on the furniture. That reason is well-known, but I have a different take on it.

It's the use of the word 'meter' that's caused it all. If LL had chosen a different word, or made one up, for the unit of length, then there would be no way to relate SL measurements to RL measurements, and avatar heights would simply be seen as being normal. It's because people consider an SL meter to be the same length as an RL meter that some people think of avatars as being generally taller than RL people, and they don;t like it. But if they assume that the SL meter is not the same as the RL meter, then the problem goes away.

That's one way to completely remove the problem and there's also another way. Suppose humans got to live on the moon, where the gravity is lot less than it is here on Earth. And, because of that lower gravity, suppose that their descendent grew to be significanly bigger. They would need houses with bigger rooms and bigger furniture to put the rooms. Then suppose that some people came from Earth, saw that they looked much too small on the large funrniture, and declared that the furniture is much too big - it doesn't match reality. They'd be stupid, of course, because the reality they spoke of was on another world. The reality on the moon evolved larger rooms and furniture because the people evolved to be larger than those on the Earth. They are 2 different worlds and they evolved differently, each according to the conditions on its world.

That's what has happened in SL. The sizes of things have evolved differently than in RL. They have evolved to suit the world they are in. If that is accepted by the SL population, then the very idea of SL sizes not matching RL sizes doesn't exist, and there is no problem with size at all. Trying to make SL sizes the same as RL sizes is fighting a losing battle, because SL is a different world which isn't suitable for RL sizes and trying to make it work is too awkward to even bother with.

Those are two ways of removing the RL person vs SL avatar height thing.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

I'm a vocal believer in the SL meter being a meter for multiple reasons.  Primarily, I'm an engineer.  When I rez a prim and I want it to be 5 meters long, I expect to be able to punch in a 5 and be done with it.  So, when I build a house or furniture or what-have-you, I come at it with the same expectations as I would working in SolidWorks or AutoCAD. ()

To that point, the scale of my avatar matters in order to match up with the environment I've created for myself.  I do use a custom "over the shoulder" camera angle which causes my relatively short avatar to fill 80% of the screen and still allow for a full view of what's in front of me. ()

At the same time, it answers the question "How can I be taller than my friends?"  What if someone actually wants to be taller.  Not just tall, but, taller than other people for RP reasons or as a reflection of his real life height?  In a world of giants, there can be no true giant.  That dynamic range is lost.  Everyone's knobs are on 11 and there's no higher to go. (>_<)

 

In the end, I do see that the commonality of max'd out avatar height and offset building scale being restricting factors to many a great possiblity in SL.  I'm not saying anyone has to actually do anything, but, I will stand against anyone saying I can't. ()y

 

 

[161488303349]

the actual discussion started over proportions. that the SL avatar is actual to small for the inworld bc the default camera position dictates that buildings have to be proportionally larger than the avatar to fit the camera inside the walls. and the furniture in the buildings is typically scaled up to fit the size of the rooms in the building

end result being that the avatar is actual to small proportionately for the world in which it lives. even tho the SL human avatar is currently by todays standards proportionally larger than the RL human in most cases

+

the argument then progress onto what other cameras positions are there which may or may not be better instead of the default camera pov that we have in SL. and if there were/had been a different default camera pov would that have affected the way in which SL was made by the resident and linden builders. building wise. like what would have been the alternatives and would they have been better or not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

Someone talked about giants in the original thread. It's true that giants are not possible by simply adjusting the av's height, but they are not possible now, so assuming that the RL and SL meters are different lengths, won't change anything concerning the desire to be a giant.

I have often fancied making a replica of my RL house in SL, using unchanged RL measurements, but, although it can be done, it would be too awkward to use, wherever I put the camera.

I'm not suggesting that there is no reason at all for recreating RL sized things but, imo, it would be silly to insist that SL sizes ought to mirror RL sizes, simply because the SL world doesn't lend itself to RL sized things. It's a different world and sizes in it have evolved to suit it.

[Kelli May]

It's an interesting take on an old SL chestnut, although I'm still not convinced. For one thing, I don't believe that larger rooms necessitate larger furniture. I've built 5m tall rooms that look perfectly natural with RL scale furniture... In fact, even in RL you see huge spaces and no-one ever thought "hey, this needs a sofa the size of Buick and doors with the handles at eye-level".

 

The other issue is avatar proportions. Above 6' or so, it becomes almost impossible to create a realistic female avatar shape. You could argue that this is a separate issue, but while it exists, taller avs will look unnaturally proportioned.

[Phil Deakins]

If the default camera position had been different, it probably would have affected the general size of things. The cam position can be adjusted individually, and things can be a little smaller for individuals who want it that way, but not down to RL sizes. Nobody ever showed a typical RL-sized furnsihed room that was easily usable - not in the orginal thread and not in the lengthy thread from some time ago. The Berlin sim was mentioned a number of times and I went there during the old thread, but all I found were large spaces - no typical RL-sized rooms. I think that was because I had to be in a group or renting or something. Even so, I have yet to see a typical RL-sized room that works acceptably well within the SL world. I'm thinking of a furnished 12' x 12' x 8' room.

[Phil Deakins]

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Kelli May wrote:

It's an interesting take on an old SL chestnut, although I'm still not convinced. For one thing, I don't believe that larger rooms necessitate larger furniture. I've built 5m tall rooms that look perfectly natural with RL scale furniture... In fact, even in RL you see huge spaces and no-one ever thought "hey, this needs a sofa the size of Buick and doors with the handles at eye-level".

 

The other issue is avatar proportions. Above 6' or so, it becomes almost impossible to create a realistic female avatar shape. You could argue that this is a separate issue, but while it exists, taller avs will look unnaturally proportioned.

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You are right that larger rooms don't necessarily need large furniture. Mansions and palaces have large rooms with standard sizes of furniture, but they have a lot more furniture in them or they look almost empty, and they look like mansion/palace rooms. But what about a cosy living room, with 2 armchairs, a sofa, a TV, a wall unit or two, and a fireplace around which are the armchairs and sofa? In RL, that would be nice and cosy in a typical 12' x 12' x 8' room, but try doing it in SL. It can be created, of course, but can you move around in it as easily as you can move around in the same room scaled up a bit? No.

[161488303349]

is what Phil says later on and we chat a lot about it in the other thread

the default camera position makes it awkward. if you put chairs and beds close to a wall then the camera will either be outside of the wall. or if the chair/bed is out from the wall a bit then the camera will pop up and forward if it would have ended up in the wall itself

the head of the avatar sitting on the chair/bed has to be about 3 metres from the wall to stop the camera from being blocked or popping

linden made the camera pop in about 2007 if i remember. before then it always got blocked. drove new residents who were non-builders insane that did. bc they couldnt figure out where their avatar had gone. bc they couldnt see themselves anymore. so linden made the pop. bc was zillions of newbies pouring into SL at that time

 

 

[Orca Flotta]

I'm a sailor in SL, and as it so happens most sailboat builders in SL measure their boats accordingly to the RL boats. So with a "normal" sized SL avie I'd look rather silly on most of my boats, like a giant on a kiddie boat. In fact if you look at most action-oriented girls in SL, they are all on a decidedly smaller frame than the top models and fashionistas. I also love my motorcycles, but there the most common script allows us to shrink the bike and make it fitting for our avies.

My Orca is 1.98 meters (65%) tall ... woah, 20 cm taller than me in RL where I already have a perfect model size. But being 1.98? That's unnatural and unhealthy ... and still kinda dwarfish in SL.

Actually lately I see more and more "natural" sized  and proportioned avies all over the grid. And the builders are adjusting their weird sized builds to the new realism as well. Most modern furniture doesn't make me look like a dwarf anymore.

Anyway, I refuse to grow! Should I change my avie ever again I'd rather even go a bit smaller. Still gotta change my cam angle once I've stopped procrastinating. :smileyembarrassed:

[161488303349]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Kelli May wrote:

It's an interesting take on an old SL chestnut, although I'm still not convinced. For one thing, I don't believe that larger rooms necessitate larger furniture. I've built 5m tall rooms that look perfectly natural with RL scale furniture... In fact, even in RL you see huge spaces and no-one ever thought "hey, this needs a sofa the size of Buick and doors with the handles at eye-level".

 

The other issue is avatar proportions. Above 6' or so, it becomes almost impossible to create a realistic female avatar shape. You could argue that this is a separate issue, but while it exists, taller avs will look unnaturally proportioned.

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You are right that larger rooms don't necessarily need large furniture. Mansions and palaces have large rooms with standard sizes of furniture, but they have a lot more furniture in them or they look almost empty, and they look like mansion/palace rooms. But what about a cosy living room, with 2 armchairs, a sofa, a TV, a wall unit or two, and a fireplace around which are the armchairs and sofa? In RL, that would be nice and cosy in a typical 12' x 12' x 8' room, but try doing it in SL. It can be created, of course, but can you move around in it as easily as you can move around in the same room scaled up a bit? No.

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this actual one of the problems with Linden Homes. they quite a small space. specially the elven ones. i had one of them. when you move in them the camera pops quite a lot

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

well, first... i wont say either scales in sl can be same as rl. Of course, maybe 1m in sl is same as 1 m in rl... but.. lets not forget we see SL throught a limited frame : our screen. Then it depends what size is our screen. Its also 2D and not 3D, so the effect is different than what we are experiencing vs RL... And again, the framed thing, just like it does with movies, cant have the same effect as in RL. You can try whatever you want with RL sized things on a 2D framed screen, you wont never see it like in RL. Movies directors know this well aswell. 

Now, about the cam angle. I dont use the default one but i ve set mine with the crtl + Mousescroll and shift +mousescroll option. Now my cam angle is at my shoulder and vertical, bec when i look in rl i dont see pp from top , lol . so ive settled my cam like this and i do find it really more comfy for me. 

about the avatar size, well... even if my avi will still look tall in rl with 1,80 m, i feel really short beside a lot of others avi lol.. and you know what ? i really dont mind. this is about freedom to eveveryone to live their SL like they want as soon they dont hurt someone else. Its like avatar's look. Some complains in the forum bec some others avatars look ugly to them.. and what ? its just a matter about taste, culture, education etc... what looks nice for me can look ugly for another person and vice versa. Since it doesnt cause any serious damage, i think we have to leave this to the freedom to everyperson. I mostly hate these kind of big malls or giant stores with tons of squared vendors one beside one on walls bec it looks ugly to me.. and what .? im still happy they can exist if others like them.... its not bec i dont like them that they have to disappear... I just dont go there, but im happy the pp who wants to go there are still able to do it. Sometimes pp should be more cautious when they complain about something they find ugly..... bec it can happen too that one day someone wants to oblige us to only one taste and maybe it wont be the one these same persons who are complaining do want. For me diversity is the real wealth of this world. 

[Phil Deakins]

In the other thread, a couple of people mentioned that typical av heights were coming down. And that's fair enough. I even made some smaller furniture - not a lot, but some. The thing is, though, that sizes can't come down to generally match RL sizes because of the default camera position. Everyone would need to change their own cam position, and, to be perfectly honest, it wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to negotiate stuff in confined spaces as it is with the current default cam position and typical SL room sizes.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

My house in the Brown sim is a good example of to-scale building.  The floorplan is a single mesh which was drawn on SolidWorks and converted via Blender.  So, its 1:1 size is to real world scale.  Though the 10' high ceiling is intentional, it's not due to any camera issues of mine. ()

Really, the default camera position is best disposed of.  It's fine for outdoors and getting a wide view of things, but, it's practically top-down compared to most game cameras. (>_<)

Building to scale is possible and frankly easier than what I'll call 'relative' scale building... Particularly to people who are practiced in the metric system (i.e. the world that isn't America).  Avatar scale is possible and allows for a wider dynamic range of sizes and heights without polygon edges and corners going all crazy.  If it all boils down to the camera... Change the camera. ()

 

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

about the default cam setting, i dont see anything wrong with it since its a "default" one. Default doesnt mean the best or even good, default means default, the one you get when you log at your first day. How this one have been choosen ? Idk, but maybe it was the best one for the person who settled it.

Now, we can deplore more about intellectual lazyness of a lot of pp. I mean the information you can get about a good setting is not impossible at all to be find. You have tons of information sources, like blogs, wiki, this forum or others, support groups or even ask to sm1 older than you in sl. Pp doesnt read anymore and they dont search for the info they need, they just expect it will come like this to them....

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

Shamefully, there are a ton of camera position and angle options which aren't in the preferences panel.  My own camera is adjust via two debug settings.  I keep a notecard inworld with the settings.  Next time I'm on, I'll post them here.  ()

 

I have a custom camera for my avatar height and for tiny/petite avatars. The tiny/petite camera is actually quite amazing in that the low angle and upward tilt makes even the smallest room look like a giant overwhelming space.  The link below is an example.  ()

 

http://snapz.me/i/512070.jpg

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

May I see your house? In 2 previous threads of discussing this topic, nobody has shown me an RL-sized house, even though they've argued in favour of them, and I'd like to see one.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

May I see your house? In 2 previous threads of discussing this topic, nobody has shown me an RL-sized house, even though they've argued in favour of them, and I'd like to see one.

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hum..... another naked party planed elsewhere ? :smileylol:

[Phil Deakins]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

about the default cam setting, i dont see anything wrong with it since its a "default" one. Default doesnt mean the best or even good, default means default, the one you get when you log at your first day. How this one have been choosen ? Idk, but maybe it was the best one for the person who settled it.

Now, we can deplore more about intellectual lazyness of a lot of pp. I mean the information you can get about a good setting is not impossible at all to be find. You have tons of information sources, like blogs, wiki, this forum or others, support groups or even ask to sm1 older than you in sl. Pp doesnt read anymore and they dont search for the info they need, they just expect it will come like this to them....

 

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Yes but, if there is no better setting, then it's pointless trying to find one. And the default setting works perfectly well. I'm not saying that an adjustemnt is worse. What I am saying is that typical RL-sized furnished rooms can't be negotiated anywhere near well enough to be generally acceptable, regardless of the camera setting. Even with the pseudo-mouselook idea in the original thread, it takes 2 hands to move around a furnished room, whereas, with things they way they are in SL, moving around a funished room is perfectly good, and only needs one hand.

[Phil Deakins]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

May I see your house? In 2 previous threads of discussing this topic, nobody has shown me an RL-sized house, even though they've argued in favour of them, and I'd like to see one.

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hum..... another naked party planed elsewhere ? :smileylol:

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LOL. It doesn't hurt to ask, does it? lol

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

It's on my parcel near the center of the Brown sim.  ()

https://my.secondlife.com/imnotgoing.sideways/snapshots/4f03f16b5b0f3142d8000001

https://my.secondlife.com/imnotgoing.sideways/snapshots/4f03f0645b0f314171000001

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Brown/204/92/24

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

well noooo... default setting or even any other settings can be bad or good depend the pp who is using it. It also depend on the screen size. Its all a matter about scren size, and the person's preference. Some will like to see around them from the top of their head, some others from their feet and some others, well from any other point of view. Then... the great think is that you CAN change the settings of your camera and customize then as you like them. 

Ok, the infos you will need for this wont come to you right away... but its just like every other infos you need when you start your second life. Should it better they force you to read a huge book before you start, adding a signature to the bottom of every page for checking you have read them ? Well, even with this i dont think a lot of pp would read it.... so well, lets say maybe the infos should be somewhere easier to be find .... but really, here again, with google, i dont and cant think its a problem for finding the infos, at least if you are not too lazy for just typing your request in google search engine and then read the infos themselves, and read them well, not 1 word every 3 words. (the "you" in my sentences here is not directed to you, Phil, specially lol... )

For me the default settings are really not the better one lol.. i dont like to see from the top of my head.. one day i had enough about them, i just had to make some googlizing and found the infos i needed and reading randomly the group chat in the firestorm support group gave me a lil more tricks for finding comfy settings for me.

now about your house thoughts... well... i dont mind a lot about the size of house, i do prefer mine small, even if its sometimes not so easy to cam inside, but i still do achieve to do. I still think btw that more far than the SL sizes vs RL sizes topics the real pb is about proportions.. ok if houses in SL have to be 5 m high, so all should be proportionated for it. but its not. even avis are not proportionated for 5 m high house. and so we see sometimes things that have really unprobable porportions... but well... doesnt it really matter ? i mean... ive never expected SL is a perfect reflection of RL reality... ok... bulidings have higher proportion than avis... and furnitures looks sometimes weird compared to what they should look.... well... my eyes get used to see things like this and i dont even notice them so often now...maybe its just not possible for now to get real scales and proportions in SL or in any virtual world ?

[Phil Deakins]

Ty, Immy. I couldn't get inside it, perhaps because there's a landing point set. I'm too tall to walk through the door but I couldn't even get through the door when walking crouched, and I was short enough in that position.

Anyway, I had a cam around inside and, apart from one very small open-ended room, the rooms look bigger than typical RL rooms, and I'm sure I could have walked around inside comfortably enough with the default camera. By "typical RL room", I mean around 12' x12'. I know that there are plenty of bigger RL rooms around but I'm making the point that SL scales cannot be 1:1 with RL. There are plenty RL scales that do suit SL, of course, but there are too many (average rooms in homes) that don't. Most RL scales would suit SL because of of RL is large spaces. It's in homes where RL scales are usually no good for SL.

[Phil Deakins]

It is still my opinion that RL and SL homes cannot be scaled 1:1 and used anywhere near as well as SL homes are used now. Some can be, of course, but most cannot.

I can't be in this thread much longer but all I really wanted to say is that there are two excellent ways of doing away with the RL/SL size argument altogether, and I posted those in the OP. I like the second one best - the one where SL naturally evolved its scales according to the world that it is, and its scales should not be equated with any other world, such as RL. This is the SL world. It is not the RL world and it doesn't make any attempt to be the RL world.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

I used the dimensions of my own RL house and modified the layout to exclude a hallway.  1950s era California ranch homes generally have 18'x20' rooms and larger. ()

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

There you go then

There are plenty of RL homes with large rooms but there are huge numbers of them with much smaller rooms. My largest room, for instance is 12' x 11' and the houses round about are smaller. I couldn't do what you've done - build my house to RL scale, furnish it, and move around it well enough, regardless of where the camera is positioned.

There's nothing wrong with scaling an SL home 1:1 with RL. In rooms like yours, it's not a problem. All I've been trying to say is that, with huge numbers of RL homes, it can't work well enough in the SL world, and I put foward 2 very good ways of getting rid of the old chestnut of an argument.