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Reikokimyo
Posts: 21
Registered: ‎09-12-2012

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Amethyst Jetaime - view message

I think people are reading into Pussycat's post wrong.  She can correct me if I'm wrong.  I think shes talking about the fact that you cannot make a proportional avi correctly if youre over a certain (average?) height.  I don't think she is railing against people that honestly want to make the avi they way they do, with intentionally different proportions.

 

I think there needs to be tools to make an avi RL proprtional.  Seems like maybe the tools arent made for that, and as a result, SL has ended up with standard that looks way off.  I've noticed lots of avis that somehow just dont look right to me.  It's not something I could ever put my finger on.  I do know things have gotten better over the years.  Used to be that hardly any skirts would fit me, because I had a butt.  Now, things are different, I see more females with hips, butts and actual legs rather than toothpicks.  So, hopefully we are getting out of the era of poor body shapes due to ignorance and bad tools.

I will have to pick up that body checker that Pussycat has out, as I want to tune my shape more, as there is something not quite right about it.

Coby Foden
Posts: 2,884
Registered: ‎05-27-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Trinity Yazimoto - view message


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

well, indeed 1sl m = 1rl m. and indeed, we need a unit related to rl. But its only a relative unit.

ETA : i hope my english has been good enough for making my explanation clear. if it doesnt i apologize


I totally agree to that.  RL meter is physical dimension, SL meter is not a physical dimension, its size varies on our physical diplays depending on how close or far we have zoomed on things what we look at.  In RL our field of vision is very wide compared to what we see of 3D virtual world rended on 2D display.  We perceive 3D world differently on the flat screen compared to how we perceive real world.  That's true.

Anyway, it is good that in virtual world we have a unit to what we are used to in RL.  It helps us in determining the correct sizes of content in virtual world in reference to the avatar size.  In RL we know what are the correct object sizes suitable for humans.  When we have that same unit in SL it is easy to make stuff what has the same relative size to avatar size as stuff has in RL to human size.

For example if we were to design a mesh spoon to SL.  We can go to our RL kitchen, measure the spoon, design it in 3D software exactly to those dimensions, import the spoon into SL, give it to avatar, and voila – a happy avatar with exactly the right size of spoon in the hand.  No guess work was needed about the right size.  With some random invented SL unit we would be have been quite lost in this respect.  Sure stuff can be resized in SL – but that just leads to non uniform scaling of things.  (I'm always surprised when I see comments like: ”SL is not RL, scale of content does not matter here at all – we just scale things as we wish”).  If all agreed that uniform consistent scaling indeed does matter, then we would have more consistent virtual world to enjoy.  (I'm not saying that making a giant avatar is wrong, if somebody likes giant, that's their choice.)

If i have understood correctly, Phil's reasoning goes like:  The default camera is too high (which it sure is – way too high), thus people tend to make avatars bigger to not look so small.  This and the fact that avatars need more room than humans do, makes it necessary to make the houses much bigger than in RL (from 1.5 to 2 times bigger, depending on the designer).  Then the RL sized furniture would look like toys, so the furniture must be made bigger – to fill the empty space.  Again because the furniture is bigger, bigger avatars are neccessary.

Bigger, bigger, bigger... until some mystical sweet spot is reached?  Well, I don't believe in that.  If people adreed that the normal average human sizes are good also for SL avatars, then RL sized furniture, vehicles, even spoons and other stuff would be perfect in SL.  And now because the avatars, in general, would not be giants, the houses would not need to be 1.5 or 2 times bigger than in RL.  A smaller upscaling for houses would be enough.  The RL sized furniture would look great in them.  Avatars would have ample room to live in them.  So the solution is not some random dimension system in SL.  The solution is that people become avare of the importance of right scale of things.

And the meter is the perfect measurement in estimating the scale and building to scale. :smileyhappy:


PS
Trinity, your English was clear and understandable. :matte-motes-smile:

Contributor
Theresa Tennyson
Posts: 2,361

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Phil Deakins - view message

The most invested people in this debate have arguments that can be boiled down in to generalizations that can be applied to most policy arguments:

Phil represents:

THIS IS HOW THINGS ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

Yes, much of the SL world is built at larger-than-RL scale, and yes, the camera angle probably has a large role it it. BUT: It's certainly possible to change the default camera angle, even world-wide. Even if code changes are required, much larger changes to the viewers/servers are done all the time.

Penny, Pussycat and Coby represent:

THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE

Yes, if everything was built to a scale that matched a SL meter to a RL meter it would simplify things and make them more "accurate." BUT: The rest of SL isn't built to this scale so things built to "correct" scale will look out-of-place with everything else the way things are now. And if you want to rebuild the entirety of SL the 1:1 ratio is arbitrary in a virtual world. Once you build an object scaling it up and down is trivial. It's perfectly true that SL built to a 1:1 scale would allow significantly more things to be built on a standard lot if you only take into account their size. It's also perfectly true that if everything was built to Yabusaka Petite scale you could get about NINE TIMES the number of objects on a lot.

In the end, tnings are going to be done the way people want to do them. As far as blaming the default avatars, I've taken a look at Ruth and she's really not freakish. Her overall height is about 6'-4", making her tall but not a giant by any means. Her face is not her fortune but she's really pretty proportional - her arms are probably a bit short but the shapes that skinmakers give out are generally both taller and less proportional than she is BECAUSE SOMEONE MADE THEM THAT WAY.

I live in a house that's based on a lighthouse. It's got four levels and a domed roof over the whole thing. It's larger than RL scale - I'd hit the front doorknob with my nose and the ceilings are quite high. My neighbor built a "log cabin" that basically runs from lotline to lotline on a lot twice as wide as mine. It's 2 stories with a gable roof and towers over my lighthouse. I met him when he moved in and tactfully noted that it was a bit largish and he said happily, "Yep! I like things big." You know what? He's a pretty nice guy. He's paying for his "land" just like I'm paying for mine - twice as much, in fact. If he wants a big house? He can have a big house.

Posts: 4,594
Registered: ‎03-16-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Coby Foden - view message


Coby Foden wrote:

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Heights might be seen as normal if that were the case, but proportions would still be disgustingly incorrect

That's not exactly "live and let live."


out-of-scale-1.jpg

Yay!  Freedom!  We need no scale, nor proportions. This should please anybody's artistic eyes.  Get used to it!  :matte-motes-big-grin:  :smileytongue:

 (Snapshot taken August 2009)


Can i have the one in the silks? pretty please?

Steel & Ink
You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
"Time And Relative Dimension In Space"
Posts: 4,594
Registered: ‎03-16-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Phil Deakins - view message

The avatar height and sliders make no sense..

Ruth is 1.91 meters tall, at 52% on the slider. Wouldn't that make 100% approximately 3.8 meters?  But it is only 2.15 when slid to 100%.. the math doesn't add up at all.

Steel & Ink
You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
"Time And Relative Dimension In Space"
Coby Foden
Posts: 2,884
Registered: ‎05-27-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

[ Edited ]

Reply to Drake1 Nightfire - view message


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Can i have the one in the silks? pretty please?


Aw, could be spoken for already... :smileysad:
... or she might prefer to stay single and free ... perhaps?  :smileywink:

Posts: 4,594
Registered: ‎03-16-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Coby Foden - view message


Coby Foden wrote:

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Can i have the one in the silks? pretty please?


Aw, could be spoken for already... :smileysad:
... or she might prefer to stay single and free ... perhaps?  :smileywink:


I didn't mean permenantly, just for a few hours...:matte-motes-big-grin:

Steel & Ink
You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
"Time And Relative Dimension In Space"
Pussycat Catnap
Posts: 5,266
Topics: 69
Registered: ‎09-16-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

[ Edited ]

Reply to Reikokimyo - view message


Reikokimyo wrote:

I think people are reading into Pussycat's post wrong.  She can correct me if I'm wrong.  I think shes talking about the fact that you cannot make a proportional avi correctly if youre over a certain (average?) height.  I don't think she is railing against people that honestly want to make the avi they way they do, with intentionally different proportions.


Yep.

The thing you'll learn in art school too is that if you want to distort -EFFECTIVELY- (to trigger a certain mood in yourself or your viewer) you need to first understand how to do it without distortion, so you can then learn what to distort and how for any given effect.

If you look at some really top notch 'stylized animation' - those artists have a consistency to how they distort, one that creates a powerful mood in the visual.

Shooting in the dark though - not knowing where you are going or how, will always deliver a weaker message / weaker visual.

And I don't believe that most people want to be distorted. They just don't know how to be proportional - while proportions are pretty simple, they are not easy. And the SL dials work against us in reaching them...

 

Oh and the other day I found someone who's been posting proportion guides even longer than Penny or I. Going to link that person to my blog. I'd link it here, but last time I did that the mods got jumpy... seems in the no advertising policy, only advertisements can be linked here. Articles, which are ok by the policy, will be deleted... O.o

 

Lastly while I have a to scale avatar, I am -NOT- arguing scale, but proportion. Related, but not identical. Some others are arguing scale and proportion, or just scale, or like me just proportion.

 

Self interest & greed are the roots of evil.
The gift of Jah is eternal life. - Romans 6:23
Equal Rights and Justice, these are not just words but great and noble conceptions. No prejudice, no discrimination. - Lutan Fyah
Getting started in Second Life | Getting good Body Proportions in SL | Rasta Music | Gallery
Pussycat Catnap
Posts: 5,266
Topics: 69
Registered: ‎09-16-2009

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Amethyst Jetaime - view message


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I also have a long torso, and my legs are also quite a bit longer than your perfect proportions suggest they should be.  To say this came about due only to " a birth defect or tragic accident or malnutrition" is absurd. A long torso is common enough that they even make bathing suits to fit them widely available.  My long legs run in the genes of my family.  I have a niece that has much more proportionally longer legs than I and no one calls her a freak;  quite the contrary, most people find her gorgeous.


You just defeated your own point. You have a long torso and long legs.

Take a tape measure to yourself. Where is your midpoint?

 

Self interest & greed are the roots of evil.
The gift of Jah is eternal life. - Romans 6:23
Equal Rights and Justice, these are not just words but great and noble conceptions. No prejudice, no discrimination. - Lutan Fyah
Getting started in Second Life | Getting good Body Proportions in SL | Rasta Music | Gallery
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Posts: 2,853

Re: Avatar sizes

Reply to Theresa Tennyson - view message

you make a good point about scale. is ok to scale up or down as you like

i quite like petites. i also quite like the giant lady that someone made the same way. she stands about 200m tall. and can move same way as avatar and petite. and is total proportion. like is not a freak. just a really big big lady (:

is amazing to see. i would like to get one of them one day if/when they start to sell them and can get outfits. be really cool

+

if look at the lady in red on the pic that Coby made. that lady wants to be big. and is ok that. but the avatar shape editor dont let her be the way she wants really i dont think

would be really good if linden fix the shape editor. or even made a better one like they got in Eve Online