Adult hubs on Zindra 'outsourced'?

[Ciaran Laval]

I was never a fan of how adult content office hours were so Zindra centric in the first place, I think opportunities were missed to have a more coherent promotion policy because of that, although to be fair, groups like Zindra Alliance were formed as a voice of Zindra business owners.

 

[Ginette Pinazzo]

Selestiall, my analogy is not close to perfect I know that, and I agree with your first 2 points. BUT just because a person or organisation CAN do something doesnt mean they SHOULD.

 

As to your third point, I do have points to make because I feel passionate about what is being done. I am sorry if it comes off as negative, and I see why it would. But sometimes, injustice is being perpertrated and it is well within rigths and perhaps duty to proclaim this with boldness.  Besides, most people are not involved in the ACUG meetings or other LL-derived proceedings and have no idea what is happening. (this must change). Please take my commentary as basic information if anything and recognize (as with all information sources) there is always an assumed perspective. My perspective I will never hide: I worked in Zindra Expo group for almost 2 years with many others to build some hope out of the chaos and much was accomplished. (I can quantify all of that) Now, all of those projects are being threatened. This latest development (selling off the zexpo island) is destructive in nature. I do hope it all works out, and maybe Ill even be helping out if the plan evolves to synch with Zindra Expo group's agenda. Anything is possible. But forums like this are where I am 'shouting' as best I can as other once-productive outlets have become useless. Axe to grind? I'm just shouting from the rooftops. Do with the information what you will.

[Ginette Pinazzo]

Originally, there were TWO meetings conducted by LL:

one for Adult Ciontent (general (policy issues, tech issues, etc)

and one for Zindra (often Marketing issues, etc)

This actually seemed a rather effective way to split things at the time. At that time, the style and subject of the topics really did seem split that way

Then LL merged the Adult Content meeting into the Zindra one, creating a  confusing dichotomy at first (eventually that relaxed because the Zindra meeting happened to have a strong meeting format that kept things profressional)

 

Now, of course, the meeting format has been erased and it's little more than LL- led focus group (sigh).

 

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Originally, there were TWO meetings conducted by LL:

one for Adult Ciontent (general (policy issues, tech issues, etc)

and one for Zindra (often Marketing issues, etc)

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The only meetings I've ever heard about are the Monday ones at Bronlen.   Which were those supposed to be, and where and when did the other ones take place?   And when did they merge?

[Ciaran Laval]

Are you sure you're not getting confused with Blondin's Wednesday meetings, which were for all communities, but during the adult changes were largely dominated by adult content concerns, Chilbo folk used to come to those meetings, they weren't interested in the adult aspect, it wasn't an adult community meeting.

[Ginette Pinazzo]

The merge happened as part of the entire OH-becoming-User Group change (when OH's were rebranded as UGs) sometime within the final months of Blondin's tenure.

In Blondin's case, it was his Wednesday meeting that merged into the Zindra (Monday) one, and I think you are right: it may have been a generic Wed community meeting at one point but (at least the way he described it) was all about adult topics. I forget that meeting's actual name (and can't be bothered to look it at moment). In any case, the Mondays had always been abt Zindra until that merge.

Since the Zindra meetings had been very dynamic (a lot of content) at that point, after the merge Zindra topcis did still 'dominate' for a bit, but that changed and effort was made to include more and more non-Zindra topics. I think it came close to 50/50 eventually (depending on what was 'hot' at the moment

As an aside:

I predict that, as the importance of Zindra becomes mroe obvious to more and more people, especially Estate Owners (as demographics change and Zindra's relevance to the rest of Adult SL is more obvious), the content of discussions will shift back to more and more Zindra talk anyway.

[Innula Zenovka]

The way I remember it was that originally Wednesdays were Blondin's main Office hours for everything but Bay City (for which I think he had a dedicated one) and then he instituted the Zindra ones for discussion of the Adult content changes after his Wednesday ones became monopolised by Adult Content discussion in the run-up to the move and no one could get a word in edgeways about anything relating to his other mainland responsibilities.   

Certainly after that whenever I tried to take more general adult content issues to his Wednesday meetings because the Monday ones seemed monopolised by matters parochial to Zindra, most of the discussion was about stuff like giant snail races and sailing on Linden waterways, and when we managed to get round to my concerns, Blondin seemed surprised I'd not raised it on the Monday.

 

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

 BUT just because a person or organisation CAN do something doesnt mean they SHOULD.

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Ginette, then you must also know, that just because you oppose something, does not mean that it should not happen.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

But sometimes, injustice is being perpertrated and it is well within rigths and perhaps duty to proclaim this with boldness.  Besides, most people are not involved in the ACUG meetings or other LL-derived proceedings and have no idea what is happening. (this must change).

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Hmm, I fail to see an injustice. 

It looks like an organization which with you were working, was given free access to four sims owned by LL, to do the Zexpo, etc.   (I understand about this as I am one of the volunteers that helped with inworld SLCC, and it worked the same way.  Sims are provided by LL, and the non-profit AvaCon group, which I and many others were volunteers, had full access and made things happen.) 

Then LL made a business decision, that will result in the four Zexpo sims that the Lab owns, being used in a different manner.  That's the jest of what has happened regarding the Zexpo land. 

In addition, LL has given use of the name Zindra to the group that won the contract, in an exclusive agreement in exchange for money and condition's met.  

All of which you don't like, but is not an injustice.  No more than if LL decided to yank the use of SLCC sims back from the AvaCon group and award control and name use of SLCC to another group.  Which they could do, and include in the deal an arrangement that the new groups pays money but has exclusive use of a gateway and the SLCC name.  All of which is fine to do, as none of it actually belongs to AvaCon...but to LL.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Please take my commentary as basic information if anything and recognize (as with all information sources) there is always an assumed perspective. My perspective I will never hide:

I worked in Zindra Expo group for almost 2 years with many others to build some hope out of the chaos and much was accomplished. (I can quantify all of that) Now, all of those projects are being threatened.

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I bolded the pertinent part.  Your projects are being threatened.   The real quantifying is done by LL who's own the land, the name Zindra,  and decides whether "much was accomplished".  That's the crux of it.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

This latest development (selling off the zexpo island) is destructive in nature.

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LL has not sold of the Zexpo islands.  They are being granted an exclusive use contract to a group, (much like the AvaCon has exclusive rights to the SLCC sims)  in exchange for money and agreed upon contractual conditions.   The goal being an enhanced gateway experience for those that are new to Zindra and to promote an increase.  

If an established area in SL such as the Freedom Continent, has shown that they have the ability to promote, increase and enhance SL residents adult experience, why would you assume this is destructive?  I see the LL decision to be a very practical and positive one.

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

I do hope it all works out, and maybe Ill even be helping out if the plan evolves to synch with Zindra Expo group's agenda. Anything is possible.

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Now you're sounding smart.  I too, had thought about getting involved, and will perhaps make contact with the Freedom Continent managers, and who knows maybe we'll both get involved?  : )

 

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

But forums like this are where I am 'shouting' as best I can as other once-productive outlets have become useless. Axe to grind? I'm just shouting from the rooftops. Do with the information what you will.

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Yes, I see that you're shouting, but it's what you're shouting that matters...not how loud. 

I fail to see an injustice, but I do see your high level of frustration.  Sometimes things do not work out the way we, as individuals, planned them.  Many factors are usually involved, and perhaps instead of focusing on perceived injustices, you could look at factors that went into the successful group's winning of this contract.  My guess is that they are doing many things rather successfully, and that was the biggest factor in their favor and also what influenced LL to their initial decision.  The goal being, to bring that level of success, to the Adult gateway.

[Couldbe Yue]

Ginette, I don't know where you got your information from but it's completely incorrect.

People interested in seeking clarification around the March 2009 Adult content changes statement started going to the mainland communities meeting in april/may 2009.  We continued to go to it until soon after Zindra was opened up in june 2009 and blondin split the meeting in two and adult content got the monday slot, to leave the wednesday meeting for other mainland issues.  There's a rather long thread in the old forum archive where you can see the discussions around this.

There's never been two adult content meetings.  as far as I remember, the adult content as a specific office hour started with the establishment of Zindra. Prior to that we were attending either Jack's or Blondin's general meetings as necessary.  For a while some of us were going to both simply because our questions weren't being answered.

Some of the details are a bit hazy after over 2 years but I have most of the transcripts from those meetings since I attended the majority of them.

As for the rest, you were well aware of the requirements if you wanted to put in a proposal.  The main one being that you need to be responsible for paying the tier. If you did submit a proposal then obviously your proposal did not meet the current LL objectives for the use of that space.

There's absolutely nothing to stop you seeking a sponsor for your group's activities who will provide you with the space you need to undertake it.  If you think you can deliver good value for the tier spent on your endeavors I'm sure you will find one or more organisations willing to support you.

 

 

 

[Ginette Pinazzo]

I believe in transparency.

Zindra Expo group did not 'submit a proposal' to a secretive and clandestine procedure because we opposed the entire process. Just because  a RFP is  setup doesnt mean you need to agree with the very conditions of that RFP. My statements in these forums are about the devaluing aspects of the process (and it goes a lot farther than the Zexpo Island travesty)

LL framed this as a contest, but we did not agree w/ the contest guidelines. That can happen.

Instead,we submitted a counter-proposal 'for the record' and published it openly for the world to see for weeks.

Everything ZE has been involved with, as far as I can remember, has been done as  openly as possible. All proposals have been published and alwys presented for public scrutiny. THAT is one way organic movements operate.

(of course, I can't say I expected a counter-proposal to win. (No delusions there) It wasn't intended to 'win' because we weren't playing that 'game'. (it had a very different purpose, which I'm happy to say has been successful so far)  And, for the record,  I did receive offers of 'sponsorship', but it's wrong to accept it and I won't be in a position to see good people's resources abused.

Somebody may have won that contest. Perhaps some very nice people with good skills. I would never take that away from them. And, if their plan synchs with the principles of ZE, there may be commonality.  But understand is the contest itself that is wrong. End does not justify means. You want to destroy community?  Make people compete'for resources  instead of collaborate. (oh and make sure you devalue them at the same time)

 

PS - Couldbe Yue, I see your point about the 2 meetings' history. I was actually referring to the split (and then later merge) starting from the moment of Zindra migration onwards., when the topics crystallized into their 2 categories. I apologize for any confusion.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

Prokofy made an interesting argument that the gateway concession should have been auctioned-off.  Prok may not have completely understood what the gateway is, seeming to see it as the existing InfoHubs on the Zindra continent, but it's an interesting idea anyway.

In a sense, though, the RFP process was a kind of "auction", except that the bidding wasn't in cost, but rather in value delivered for a fixed cost.  I'm pretty sure LL could have gotten more than US$195 per month per sim if the deal was to simply do whatever the winning bidders wanted with the Destination traffic LL will ship their way.  I don't think LL was trying to maximize revenue generated by just these four sims, but rather to use the sims as a tool for getting maximum total return from Adult content in SL.

It's practical, I think, to expect that a gateway operator should be able to make a profit over the US$195 per sim monthly ante and at the same time provide a vibrant welcoming service on those sims, to the benefit of Adult content in SL as a whole. My only real concern is whether LL specified enough metrics on the operation to be sure we all keep getting the expected value from that partnership.

[Venus Petrov]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

It's practical, I think, to expect that a gateway operator should be able to make a profit over the US$195 per sim monthly ante and at the same time provide a vibrant welcoming service on those sims, to the benefit of Adult content in SL as a whole. My only real concern is whether LL specified enough metrics on the operation to be sure we all keep getting the expected value from that partnership.

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I agree entirely.  There has to be something in it for all parties in the agreement.  It was not clear to me if the Gateway was to replace one or more of the Infohubs on Zindra but it seems the answer is 'no'.

I believe if more new residents have a positive entry experience, they will be less likely to be lapsed or canceled accounts.  Now, if LL could improve the entry experience for the other new residents....

[Serjourn Daxter]

Time for some facts:

I am the one behind the Freedom Continent as an idea. It all started with the "Zindra exodus". Instead of moving to Zindra, we joined up private islands, slowly growing into what became "The Freedom Continent".

We attempted to attend the Blondin meetings, but after being told to shut up once because we were "non-Zindrains" and totally ignored on two later meetings, we stopped wasting time going there.

Instead we formed firm and less firm alliances, some moving their sims to join the continent, others cooperating in terms of events and cross marketing. It was around this time that we established the concept of the Freedom Continent. At the sime time we established a management structure to be able to properly handle the sims, quite a challenge as we had many different owners involved, but we succeeded and the Saturday Manager's meetings now work well, although we have recently had to expand the skybox where we meet.

We got hold of the bid for the hub, made a proposal and obviously impressed Linden Labs as they awarded us the contract. We pay for the sims on commercial terms, and I have choosen to rent the sims from Angelic Estates rather than owning them myself, due to the European VAT issues and the reduced need for investment capital.

The use of the Zindra name was no big deal for us, it is a name rarely used in search and it just "floated through" in the contract dealings. After a group of residents approached us and explained their concerns, we asked Linden Labs for a name change as the name was important to the Zindra groups and not us, and could be misleading if used by us.

The 5 (yes, not 4 but 5) sims are now built and ready and officially opening at 11am SLT Saturday December 3rd. Many vendors have choosen to come and set up, still we have worked hard to aviod making it a gigant mall. By having higher prices and fewer vendors, we manage that to a reasonable degree. There is at the moment no commercial activity except an art gallery in the central sim, so that sim is "carried" by the other four.

Rather than have opinions on the sims, why not visit them, and provide feedback? These sims will only work if they add value. If they add value, they are valuable to the merchants and the users. We are very open for cooperation, like that we are offering space in pavillions in the RP sims for people wanting to have staff there.

Come, look, provide feedback, http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Adult%20Hub/152/152/55 is the SLURL to the central sim. From there you can get info and start visiting other sims, on and off the Freedom Continent and the Zindra continent.

 

 

[GariGlitter]

Isn't Viale Linden in personal charge of all this? Surely he hasn't cocked it up? Has he?

[Couldbe Yue]

I am assuming you replied to my post because that was the one you were reading when you were ready to reply rather than replying to me specifically.

My general comment is that anything that aids the retention of users is welcomed but I think you've been sold a pup by LL.  I have grave doubts you'll make it financially viable for a raft of reasons but I'm hoping you do manage to do it.

I have had a stall there since a day or so after you opened them up for lease.  My KPIs for it are more business benefits rather than sales.  That said, like a lot of those who are there I suspect they'll give you some time to get established but we won't keep supporting you continually.  Thankfully you should have a steady stream of vendors prepared to take a chance on the visibility offered but I don't envy you one bit for the task you've taken on and the income stream you are using to support it.

Good luck with the launch today.  We're hoping you'll be a grand sucess. 

[Qie Niangao]

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Good luck with the launch today.  We're hoping you'll be a grand sucess. 

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Agreed, enthusiastically.