The Future of Teens and Second Life

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What happens when you mix minors and adults on the same grid?

The following links might be instructive. And pay special attention to who initiated the thread in that first link:

http://www.blogsafety.com/topic/Gaming-Virtual-Worlds/Thoughts-About-Imvu/1100000166?&start=0

http://www.blogsafety.com/topic/Parenting-Online-Kids/Imvu-And-Virtual/1200000449&start=45

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Ummm...LOL...perhaps you didn't read my response or perhaps you replied to the wrong person. 'Cause I don't recall quoting you at all, insulting anyone or mentioning guts or intelligence. So before you reply with a personal attack...maybe you should be sure you reply the right person Or read the post in it's entirety.

Beyond that, I've voiced my opinion and don't feel the need to say anything more than what I've already said. I think a lot of people would agree with my above post.

So...have fun with the debate...'cause this is one person who's not going to induldge you with any further arguments and I don't feel the need to justify anything I've said.

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Yanni, it sounds like Linden Lab is faced with the hard decision of whether or not they are going to be in the pornography business.

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I dont do or have anything that would not be considered to be pg

Even if LL decided to make the whole grid PG, the problems I have mentioned would still exist.

The PG sim owners would still have liabilities and the child would still be at risk. LL would still need all the same safe guards mentioned. The only way LL would be able to keep mature/adult items from rezzing would be to either tag them that way or totally eliminate building.

It would actually be even worse if they made the whole grid PG. At least if they maintain the mature areas or adult areas the PG sim owners have the option of changing their sims to mature or adult just to avoid liabilities, even if they do only have PG content.

The exodus from SL then really would be massive.

and to answer your next question. no, I am not on Facebook, my space or any other site that has potential liabilities. I simply dont go to any social site that has both children and adults in the mix as I can't support any site that exposes children to adult content or places a liability on adult

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so yea I think LL needs to look into preventing "adult/mature" items being rezzed on PG sims

In order to prevent ideas of an adult/mature nature from being rezzed on pg sims we will first need a way to label content as Adult/mature a ratings system so to speak then putting in filters to filter these items so they can't be rezzed on pg sims would be simple. However I have a feeling that LL are only going to rely on simple rules in the TOS to keep it from being rezzed. If they follow past examples they are doing this half baked without any actually programed in restrictions.

Trouble is, I can't see a way they can program in any restrictions - not realistically. This would have to work not only for new content but for all the existing content on the grid and in people's inventories. What would happen with modifiable stuff? A plain dining table can be turned into an xxx product in a couple of minutes using a few animations and a simple script. Are we moving towards a time when we can no longer freely create, modify and distribute content?

This is another area where I can see a huge potential to break the basic SL experience very badly.

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so yea I think LL needs to look into preventing "adult/mature" items being rezzed on PG sims

In order to prevent ideas of an adult/mature nature from being rezzed on pg sims we will first need a way to label content as Adult/mature a ratings system so to speak then putting in filters to filter these items so they can't be rezzed on pg sims would be simple. However I have a feeling that LL are only going to rely on simple rules in the TOS to keep it from being rezzed. If they follow past examples they are doing this half baked without any actually programed in restrictions.

Trouble is, I can't see a way they can program in any restrictions - not realistically. This would have to work not only for new content but for all the existing content on the grid and in people's inventories. What would happen with modifiable stuff? A plain dining table can be turned into an xxx product in a couple of minutes using a few animations and a simple script. Are we moving towards a time when we can no longer freely create, modify and distribute content?

This is another area where I can see a huge potential to break the basic SL experience very badly.

We might possibly be moving into a time where modifying and using scripts is going to be very limited. If you have seen most of the smexual content it has quite a few scripts runing within it. Some of them are very script heavy so to speak.

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I too  would LOVE to hear suggestions on risk mitigation strategies!  Other  than risk/liability insurance which I am sure most PG owners cant  afford.

here's mine (and yes, it's a PG continent): https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6241

-a PG only continent where teens are *forced* to stay until they are 18, and that adults are only able to access with *verified* payment information (after all, *paypal* can do it, can't they?). so that if a problem comes up, there is definite identity info of some kind, and thus consequences for an adult that tries to victimize children. and with draconian enforcement of content rules. I'm talking zero-tolerance

great idea with only one flaw. If LL can do that then why couldnt they keep the teen grid open. Wouldnt that require the same resources as the teen grid did?

No, because there'd be plenty of adults going there too. The TG only allowed adults in who had a specific reason to be there and who had all sorts of background checks. That made it too small to be viable. A PG continent, together with PG Estate land, where anybody with a verified account could go, buy land, build, sell content, run classes, set up clubs ... that's a much more viable option.

It will have associated costs of course, and it doesn't solve all the problems by a long way. In particular, it doesn't absolve PG land owners of any responsibility - I will admit that my concern was more about Mature mainland owners whose content is within draw distance of a PG sim. My guess is that if the PG and Mature mainland areas were properly separated, most PG owners who were concerned about mixing with teens would choose to stay and have their land changed to Mature.

If LL cannot afford to merge the grids safely, I would prefer it if they just closed the Teen Grid. Sorry, teens.

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great list!

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Thing is adults that didn't belong on the TG still got in and the copybots. Just like some of the teens bipassed and made adult accounts on the MG. According to some of the teens they have the adult content already on the TG itself. Doesn't really sound like the TG was policed at all to keep certain content out.

Like I said earlier most items that are smexual in nature have heavy script usage. In LL's new viewer 2 they have a script usage button from there the land owner can see what scripts are running on their land and who they belong to. You can also return these items via that feature. I've been playing with that feature quite a bit. It also tells you what scripts an avatar is runing on their person and how heavy it is. As well as giving the objects name.

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My strong preference is to prevent a crime not be able to prove one happened.

If minors are identified as minors predators will seek them out. If minors aren't identified as minors it will be up to that 16 or 17 year old who "really likes this person" or "just wants to see what its' like" or any of 100 reasons you might have told yourself at the same age to come clean. It's an unmanageable position for everyone involved.

I completely agree with you. My main concern about all of this are the pedophiles and perverts that will seek out to seduce those who are under 18. Already, I'm sure its been a problem in SL. I myself have come across several residents in SL that admitted they were under age, and now with this new change, there will be a flooding of youth and thus a flooding of pedophiles to follow. What is LL going to do about it, especially the next time I turn on Dateline's "To catch a predator" only to find SL being featured as the tool they use to get teens to meet with them in person? I bet that will make SL really popular then...

What is to stop a pedophile from lying about their age, saying there 16 so they can go to PG sims and act like they are underage only to IM or in voice chat seduce them, and eventually get them to create an alternate account, lie about their age, and invite to the sex roleplay in adult sims?

LL should really be careful about this one....parents are not very understanding, and I know this from experience because I used to do customer service for Nintendo. Angry parents in general never want to accept the blame for their kids, instead they would rather blame the company/employees/whoever they see fit, and quite unreasonably so at times. The general public is almost never willing to admit any fault of their own.

I don't even want to know how the same parents would react to their teens being exposed to mature content in SL.

I hope this doesn't flush SL down the toilet for good....cuz that would really suck.

P.S. I would also like to add that with the current state of the U.S. economy, petty lawsuits are at an all time high. I hope the Lindens take that into consideration as well. People are looking for any excuse to sue these days.

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Thing is  adults that didn't belong on the TG still got in and the copybots. Just  like some of the teens bipassed and made adult accounts on the MG.  According to some of the teens they have the adult content already on  the TG itself. Doesn't really sound like the TG was policed at all to  keep certain content out.

It's more likely that the copybotters on the TG are teens who broke the rules to make MG accounts. I understand that a few unauthorised adults have got in, but it's much more difficult than it is for a teen to make an unverified MG account. Either way, you are right - the TG is not, according to the teens, the safe garden it is made out to be by LL. The difference is in what is officially allowed to be there. Any adult content or unauthorised adults on the TG can, theoretically, be ARd and removed. Officially allowing minors and adult content in the same place doesn't look very good at all.

Like I  said earlier most items that are smexual in nature have heavy script  usage. In LL's new viewer 2 they have a script usage button from there  the land owner can see what scripts are running on their land and who  they belong to. You can also return these items via that feature. I've  been playing with that feature quite a bit. It also tells you what  scripts an avatar is runing on their person and how heavy it is. As well  as giving the objects name.

Not sure I agree. Normal furniture with poses often uses exactly the same scripts as racier items. Dance balls, vendors, bunnies, security orbs ... all can be script-heavy. Then there's attachments - again, AOs and dance huds will use as many scripts as anything else ... and of course, resizeable hair and boots. Then there's skins and clothing (or lack of), textured prims ... plenty of xxx stuff that doesn't use scripts at all.

We do need script limits - without them it's extremely difficult to manage script usage, especially on mainland, but I don't think it's a good way of detecting adult content.

(edited for clarity)

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That script usage button also gives the name of the person who put it there or owns it as well as the name of the object. I'm willing to bet that it is one of the new tools that they have put in place.

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This is more of a general post not really in response to you AylaNeissa. I just couldnt get the thread to work as a reply to the right poster.

Some of you have suggested that we offer suggestions on how to make all this work ilo saying why it cant ,so ihere is a suggesion that might REDUCE not eliminate my concerns

1. Have all adults that want access to PG sims have their accounts PG verified and have them register their Drivers license as well as a credit credit card. In addition make it a requirement that all adult avatars use there RL names and State in which they reside. If the adults wanting to enter the PG sims are not up to any nefarious activities they shouldnt mind having their RL names for all to view.. As I said this wouldnt eliminate our concerns but it might serve as a deterent to adults that want to put a child in a compromising position. I am not advocationg do this but would love to hear your thoughts on this

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great idea with only one flaw. If LL can do that then why couldnt they keep the teen grid open. Wouldnt that require the same resources as the teen grid did?

No, because a continent on the main grid isn't the same issue as maintining a separate grid for teens. Also, the main grid has a *ton* of uninhabited (or *under* inhabited) PG and mature mainland regions at present.

It would be to LL's financial advantage to re-draw the map of the "linden regions", and use existing regions to create new land masses that have their own content designations, rather than mixing general and moderate regions together. Also by re-arranging the grid by content, they avoid the whole "singling out a particular group for persecution" thing that got them in trouble during the Adult content fiasco.

Or, just pick the exisiting continent that currently has the least residents on it, change it to PG only, and swap people who want a "pg only" experience for land there, and flag teen accounts to re-direct all teleports that go anywhere else. Also set it so that only adults who have verified payment info on file can go there. they supposedly do that with Zindra, don't they? they can apply it to the "teen-friendly" continent as well.

Not as expensive than maintaining another grid, or even re-drawing the existing grid; and it uses resources that LL is spending anyway. If they started right away, they could even do the land swap in an orderly, measured pace, rather than having a land rush on a new continent, like they did with Zindra.

There are simple solutions for these problems- *if* they are implemented in advance of the changes rather than *afterwards*. LL doesn't seem to realize this. One of the things that frustrate so many of us during the "adult content wars" was that a fix like this would have kept the people who wanted a PG experience from having to deal with "bob's mammary bonanza" getting built right next door in the mature sim.

There really only needed to be three types of content rating- PG, Mature, and, on *private estates*, "anything goes". the grid is largely arranged that way anyway. Instead, we have G, PG and XXX, with nobody paying attention to where the non-advertized XXX stuff is (it can be on any rating of land, it just doesn't show up in search) untill or unless someone files an abuse report- and the content stays until the abuse report is actually followed up on.

That isn't an adequate system for the protection of people under the age of 18, or the people who have TOS allowed *private* adult or even mature content (say R-rated) and activities on their mature parcels, or PG landowners who wind up with such content in the region next door.

^V^

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yes.

this blog is monitored and moderated.

This blog might be moderated, but so far I've seen little evidence of it- as for monitored, I honestly don't think so- so far Terrence Linden hasn't even been as active as Blondin LInden was in the various Adult content threads. If the LIndens were watching this, someone would have said something by now, if only to pat us all on the head and tell us not to worry about it, and offer us all linden bears to make up for the trauma of it all. : )

^V^

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This merging will most likely happen for many reasons but I suppose I can hold a shred of hope that it won't. However, I think that if they are transferred over the creation date for the avatars should be reset to the day they arrive on the adult grid. Call it an extra layer of protection so that when interacting with the unknown element you can look at the avatar creation date and exercise caution.

Some kind of flag that would identify a teen in conjunction with an 'opt out' button that would mute me to teens and teens to me. I am an adult and want to interact with other adults to whatever end. I don't want to be constantly second guessing and be on guard 24/7. I hate to say it but if it comes down to constantly having my guard up, why be here at all?

As previously stated by others, there is the other side of the coin. Now you have given predators access to minors. Again, not good. Adults and teens were kept separate for many reasons which offered protection to both sides. That protection would no longer be there.

Call a spade a spade and I'm calling this situation what it is - a snake pit.

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Yanni,

There are some kinds of banned activity that have been pretty well suppressed in SL, and I think they could crack down if they decided to.

If LL decides they don't want to be in the sex industry, I agree it is probably a do-or-die decision. They will have decided to get out of the sex industry even if it means going out of business or selling the business to a pornographer.

Also, could you please post a slurl to the G rated sim where the BSDM is taking place? Or send me a landmark inworld. If you are using Viewer 2, it should be in your teleport history.

If you don't want to AR them, I will do it.

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you know what I think I am going to do if the grid merge happens is hire some teens to monitor my sims. I had planned to pay the sandbox monitors, but I think I will pay monitors for the rest of the sims too.

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1. Have all adults that want access to PG sims have their accounts PG verified and have them register their Drivers license as well as a credit credit card. In addition make it a requirement that all adult avatars use there RL names and State in which they reside. If the adults wanting to enter the PG sims are not up to any nefarious activities they shouldnt mind having their RL names for all to view.. As I said this wouldnt eliminate our concerns but it might serve as a deterent to adults that want to put a child in a compromising position. I am not advocationg do this but would love to hear your thoughts on this

I think it is a very bad idea to give out RL information on the internet. Noone should EVER give out any real life info under any circumstances in any environment. It's bad enough that cyberbullying will increase dramatically when this move happens. To give access to your personal rl info is just playing with a loaded gun.

Here's a little info about cyberbullying which btw is practiced almost exclusively by teens (note the word almost please)

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Being a victim of cyberbullying can be a common and painful experience. Some youth who cyberbully

* Pretend they are other people online to trick others

* Spread lies and rumors about victims

* Trick people into revealing personal information

* Send or forward mean text messages

* Post pictures of victims without their consent

When teens were asked why they think others cyberbully, 81 percent said that cyberbullies think it’s funny. Other teens believe that youth who cyberbully

* Don’t think it’s a big deal

* Don’t think about the consequences

* Are encouraged by friends

* Think everybody cyberbullies

* Think they won’t get caught

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In this study 34 percent of subjects engage in online harassment of others:

Approximately 2,000 middle school students (mean age 12.8 years) were surveyed regarding their experiences with traditional and cyberbullying. Students who reported engaging in one or more specific behaviors two or more times in the previous 30 days were identified as bullies, and students who experienced one or more specific behaviors two or more times in the previous 30 days were considered victims of bullying. Data suggest that 34 percent of respondents engaged in traditional bullying behaviors two or more times in the previous 30 days while 44 percent of respondents were victims of traditional bullying. Additionally, almost 22 percent were cyberbullying offenders while 29 percent were victims of cyberbullying.

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Cyber bullying statistics are surprising and sobering. There absolutely are adult victims of cyber bullying. Taking personal Internet safety precautions is vital for everyone. However, the main targets of this sort of cyber abuse are teens. In fact, much of the current statistical research around cyber bullying focuses on teens – likely because studies suggest this form of teen abuse is growing at an abnormally fast rate.

The National Crime Prevention Council suggests that more than half of American teens are exposed to cyber bullying in one form or another. In addition, as technology advances and new forms of electronic communication are introduced kids safety on the Internet becomes further compromised.

======================================

There is way too much information on the subjects of online harassment, internet safety, protecting your children on the internet, etc.to do more than just touch on the subject in this post. But it is obvious that this move by LL will figure into it all quite prominently. I suggest everyone take some time and research this. You'll notice it falls in line with Mirandas comments also. Most adults I imagine will be quite surprised by the statistics.

Here is one story of what happened to one family when teens got ahold of someones real life info. (NSFW)

http://www.momlogic.com/2010/07/exclusive_interview_mom_defends_11_year_old_youtube_sensation_jessi_...

If that 34% is accurate then first of all, I am sorry to the other 66% who most likely pay at least a partial price for the actions of the others. I also would like to mention that this means for every 100 teens that get dumped onto the main grid with us you can expect 34 of them to be griefers who think its a riot to harass, lie about, bully, and otherwise screw with others.

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Oh YAY!

Lets unleash pubesessant teens to all the pedophiles and sex crazed bondage sims oh that is great idea. As it is I have people hitting on me almost every day for sex! I can just imagine the im's I am going to be getting now from sex crazed teens.

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No, because a continent on the main grid isn't the same issue as maintining a separate grid for teens.

The existing Teen Grid is merely another continent; it's somewhat of a misnomer, because it's the same "grid" that you are on. It's like Zindra - far away. For example, you can search for regions on the "main grid" from the "teen grid" and get landmarks. However, TP is disabled between teen and regular sims, and likewise teen/main avis are filtered from searching each other. If you have the UUID of an asset, you might be able to transfer things between teens and adults (not sure).

The cost of the teen "grid" is not about servers or extra networking or anything like that, and I can't believe it's even about extra sysadmin overhead. The cost is all about the vast overhead of in-house, live-operator, verification of adults and teens for the grid - something which they gave up on a while back, anyway. And the separate customer support and so on. Computers are cheap. Staff are very expensive. In the dire straights that the company is in, it probably had to fire the last one or two people who did that kind of office work. Moreover, claiming that they are making a "safe" environment for kids is a major liability, and they probably realized they aren't up for it. Big money from the Education segment did not materialize to support teens in this way. Closing it down is very easy to understand.

The thinking on allowing kids on the "main grid" is probably that it will be just like the rest of the Internet, and there is some cost analysis that says they can afford the legal staff to deal with being "just another site on the Internet where there might happen to be both adults and kids." I seriously doubt that they are going to actively advertise that the environment is "safe" or supervised or whatever for children while still allowing adults. They're just going to say that there are some (unannounced) minimal features, and that all responsibility is upon the residents (adults, and the parents of the kids). Then they can dispense with all the personnel that would be needed for anything resembling a "teen grid".

Restricting avis to G is trivial. Preventing seeing M content is probably impossible without re-organizing the geography of the M/G mainland sims. Marking content and enforcing access based on ratings is a big technical project, which they might or might not be able to do, in varying degrees. Preventing communication between adults and children -- and probably even allowing people to reliably determine who is or is not an adult -- is probably not a part of the plan; probably that would be an anti-goal, in fact.

A vision of LL is to have an age-neutral smoking-clover utopia where everybody communicates with each other and creates and shares content and understanding. SL is the platform by which this world transformation will happen (or at least begin). The financial aspect is that LL needs to be a going concern in order to bring this about, and if the investors are super lucky it might even pay off. While

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Miranda, I don't think you took the time to read the comments made in this thread. You might be okay with being called names etc, because of the age group you're in, but I'm NOT. I was just trying to stand up for myself and the other mature teenagers. I never said there are not immature and horrible teenagers, my life is ruined because of those, but I won't get into that. I'm just saying that not ALL of us are like that, and there are a good deal of them. Anyhow, the the teengrid is so small, a few 16-17 year olds will make no difference, in my eyes.

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I can understand Linden Lab's decision to discontinue the "teen" product... maintaining the main grid alone must be a monumental task. Allowing 16 and 17 year olds into Second Life is just negligent. There is no way a high school kid should be interacting with adults in many of the settings that SL provides. The age confirmations and sim ratings are not going to stop these savvy teens, either. You can't buy an adult magazine or video at that age, or walk into a casino or bar, so why would you expose them to all that and more here?They can wait a couple years. Make the minimum age 18 (at least).

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Aug 28, 2010 4:24 PM Nany Kayo says in response to Cabbage Acanthus:

You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions based on subjective interpretation. I prefer to work with factual information as it becomes available, or at least base my interpretations on the best expert opinion available.

So I guess my answer is no, I don't agree.

?

Nany, The vast majority of your posts are loaded with assumptions and conjecture. No matter how many times or with how much faith you state or imply that SL is doing away with adult content does not change the fact that they aren't.

What expert opinions are you referring to? You have failed to cite a single source when questioned.

And what exactly are you not agreeing with? My statement that there are other obscene things besides sexuality? That we should try to ensure that these other things should be addressed as well?

What else do you find obscene? Is it just sexual expression? That seems to be the only thing you are really carrying on about? Is that it?

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i know some peoplo

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I have been considering this quite a bit of late and have come to several realizations.

First, the integration of the teens into the main grid is a bad idea. On the scale of good to bad ideas, we now have a new benchmark of awful. Regardless of whether or not all of the concerns of "the average customer" are valid can be and is being debated back and forth.

The one thing we can't argue is the presence of those concerns. A lot of people are concerned. A lot of these people aren't the super sexed "freak" minority of residents that are so celebrated in the media. The vast majority of the MG is M rated lands. A lot of the people who have holdings in these lands are concerned. Will enough of these people change the way they play (and pay) SL? Who knows for certain. But more that a few will change their habits. Massive layoffs and the dissolution of the TG are signs that LL isn't exactly doing great as it is.

LL has made a wonderfully unique product that is truly loved by its customer base. Sadly, they have failed to realize how unique it is and keep trying to apply models and concepts that simply do not fit. They keep trying to plug-in a bowling ball, so to speak. They also have completely missed the mark when it comes to evaluating their customer and why their customer loves their product. Most other businesses that have missed the mark as badly are no longer in business by this point. LL is in business for the most part because enough of us love SL enough to keep logging on despite them, not because of them. They have confused our "love" for the product with an addiction or a "need" for the product. Most of us aren't actually addicted. We won't put up with absolutely anything.

The introduction of the teens into the MG adds a new element to "life" here in SL. Until now, the only thing LL could affect no matter how badly they f-up was somebody's profits, or the usability of a favorite toy, or cost someone some more cash. This time, it's different. The introduction of the teens adds an element of RL risk, no matter how remote, into the game. A lot of people who will put up with the "usual BS" here in SL will balk at even the barest shred of the "usual BS" following them into the RL. Again, it really does not matter whether or not the concerns are fair, or morally "right", or even if they are laughably remote. The fact that the concern is even there to begin with is enough to cause irreparable harm to SL.

Another group of users, while not directly affected because they don't currently do the pixel pump, also have real concerns. We (I'm in this group) are quite concerned about yet another blow to the freedom of expression that was once a staple in SL. We are concerned about a sterile, lifeless mainland. We also have a concern that if SL has a few really good (and some believe inevitable) scandals as a result of completely cocking up the introduction of teens, that the RL reputation of anyone who plays SL will be far worse than it already is. Anyone banking on SL becoming more respectable as a result of this move is going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise.

I was without access to the internet for a few days and used some of my spare time coming up with a way that LL could integrate the teens and make it work. As I was going through all of the details and liabilities and all the rest of the crap that needs to be resolved, something clear as day dawned on me.

This wasn't my problem.

These teens aren't my kids. It has become quite evident that SL is not my world.

LL has gotten it in their head to do something completely stupid. This time I'm not helping Tom Sawyer whitewash his fence. He can do that chore on his own for once. If they want to do this, it's their livelihoods, their reputations, and their "world" on the line, not mine. LL, if you are reading this, I will relate one thought that came to me. How are your local chat, IM, and IP logs going to do you any good when a kid comes up missing and you have to explain to the feds and the press how you don't know who they ran off with because they were using an anonymous account and the IP address wound up being some coffee shop?

Just a thought.

Have fun with the inevitable whitewashing that is in your future.

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Linden Lab could stop using anonymous accounts. My account isn't anonymous to Linden Lab. They have my name and address. I don't see why anyone needs to be anonymous to LL.

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They could...

They could actually show some sense for once but I seriously doubt they will. They like the numbers that the anonymous accounts give them.

I bet they will keep the free anonymous accounts and bring the teens in without making any additional significant changes to the grid or their existing policies.

I'm just glad no teens that I am responsible for are mixed up in any of this.

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Well, worst decsion I could think of. Seeing teens act like adults and the real adults having fun with the little teens-- wait till mom finds out what Janie is doing and meeting up with in RL. Lets see the lawsuits start.

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Hi 1hump, yes, I am reading along There are a lot of suggestions in the comments, and I am definitely taking note of them. Per my previous post, I will be speaking with residents from a number of segments within SL soon to provide more detail on what we're planning, precautions we're taking, and to get feedback and additional suggestions for the future. So look for more detail soon!

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Terrence, it's all well and good that you will be "speaking with residents from a number of segments within SL" but this change affects everyone.

I think the fact that you announce this decision, and then after the fact plan to speak "with residents from a number of segments with SL" and will tell us "soon" what "were planning, precautions we're taking and to get feedback and additional suggestions for the future" is very telling.

If those details on what you are planning and the precautions you are going to take were already decided, if LL had a good plan already in place before they just decided to throw the teens into the MG, then why not just tell us now?

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Linden Lab could stop using anonymous accounts. My account isn't anonymous to Linden Lab. They have my name and address. I don't see why anyone needs to be anonymous to LL.

They want people to come in so they're not going to do that, they should make providing this info more appealing though.

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Hmmm... Announce unpopular plan, initiate discussion and ask for feedback, then ignore feedback and do what they'd planned in the first place.

This all seems eerily familiar...

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For teens and adults with sensitive, more reserved moral issues, which is the vast majority... who are not so bad!

For someone who thinks they're in the majority, I see a surprising lack of support on this post for your point of view. In fact, I'd say that in SL you're in a distinct minority.

What people where you live think about SL doesn't matter, it's what the majority of LL's customers think.

The Majority of existing users don't want teens on the grid.

All the rationalizing and moralizing aside, that's simply the truth.

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Heh....

Yep.

The words familiar and eerie do seem appropriate. I would use another word instead of eerie but enough of my posts get pulled as-is,

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Ciaran, the vast majority of people entering Second Life using anonymous accounts don't stay. The ones who don't stay aren't really customers. The returns LL is deriving on anonymous accounts may not be worth their cost.

A lot of software companies offer a limited demo. Second Life could do the same thing. Allow users a semi-anonymous limited functionality and limited time account, then require identification for a full service account. It would cut down on the risk to both users and LL, and it would reduce griefing.

They could confine the demo accounts to a Linden operated section of the grid without the ability to purchase anything from xStreet, so they would have to use approved freebies for clothing and so on. That would let LL control their public image better by controlling more of the new user experience. There wouldn't be any nudity or griefer tools available to anonymous accounts, for example. They could make it possible to communicate with people on the main grid, but not receive inventory from them.

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Hi Cabbage, we have the majority of our initial plans confirmed, but still need to finalize a few points. The segments that we are speaking to are rather representative of our customer base, and we believe that speaking with them 4 months prior to the change will give us time to incorporate some of the feedback into future plans.

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I am baffled by LL's decision to allow minors access to any part of SL. Has no Linden ever stood in a PG info hub and listened to what goes on or what subjects are discussed via voice chat in SL. Even in PG rated areas the discussions are clearly adult. To my knowledge no records are kept of voice chats in SL. If someone states something in chat you can prove it with chat logs, however with voice chat there are no records or proof.

No company in their right mind would expose themselves to this kind of liability. SL has always been an adult playground, where we can express ourselves and our creativity without the fear of judgement or repercussions. As a mother of 3 teenage children, I can tell you it would be a cold day in hell before I ever allowed my children to be exposed to what goes on in SL.

We've all seen the new guy, who cant manage to dress his avatar but he did find the "freenis" and is now teleporting to random places with his "junk" out for all the world to see. It takes new players days if not weeks sometimes to figure out how this place works. Who's gonna be held responsible when the new guy accidently teleports to a PG area and exposes teenage girls to his SL penis or asks someone underage for cybersex? The moron who had no idea what he was doing, or LL for allowing minors access to a place that clearly evolved into a ADULT world.

I can say it wont be long before Linden Labs will probably be center of Chris Hansens next internet investigation.

I really hopes someone at Linden Labs wakes up and realizes this is pure suicide for their company. There was a reason There.com couldnt compete with SL, because it was created for teens and considered a PG world where no adult content was allowed. LL cant be 100% positive that minors will not be exposed to adult material in SL, so in my opinion this just isnt the place for them. If it was then the teen grid would have been profitable enough to sustain itself. And really isnt that what it boils down to, they are closing the teen grid because its not profitable. Well if providing that service to teens wasnt profitable then close the doors and walk away. Dont open our doors to minors and expose us to liability because you couldnt figure out how to make a buck. The vast majority of us actually spend money to play, and dont wish to play with anyone underage. Please LL listen to the vast majority of your residents and DONT MAKE THIS POOR DECISION!

I have rambled on enough. But I must say to my fellow SL residents lets enjoy ourselves while we can, for I fear SL wont be available to us much longer. It might be a year or two down the road, but eventually LL will be swamped with so many lawsuits there will be no more secondlife for any of us.

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Hi Terrence is there any plans on implimenting a content ratings system so as to keep certain content out of pg areas and how about restricting voice on pg sims as logs are not really kept when using voice.

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Aug 31, 2010 5:31 PM Terrence Linden says in response to Cabbage Acanthus:

Hi Cabbage, we have the majority of our initial plans confirmed, but still need to finalize a few points. The segments that we are speaking to are rather representative of our customer base, and we believe that speaking with them 4 months prior to the change will give us time to incorporate some of the feedback into future plans.

Hi Terrence!

I would very much like to know with which "segments" LL is planning upon discussing the introduction of the teens into the MG. I think it would be very enlightening to us all to know what you consider representative of your customer base.

While I do find the statement that you have the majority of your initial plans confirmed reassuring, I find the fact that you would announce such a sweeping change before all of the details are finalized to be a bit disturbing. It seems to the uninformed that the decision has already been made regardless of the "details". And we are all uninformed here, Terrence. We have yet to receive anything other than some bland generalities and vague reassurances. You could do a great deal to dispell a lot of the uncertanty and remove a great deal of your critic's steam if you could give any indication that LL is anything other than unprepared for the realities of the situation that you are going to force upon the MG all too soon.

I also did not miss the fact that you said "we believe speaking with them 4 months prior to the changes will give us time to incorporate some of the feedback into future plans". That sounds lovely but the fact that you say that that feedback will be incorporated into future plans is very interesting. It seems to indicate that you have no intention of letting that feedback affect in any way your current plans. I guess it would be too much work. I mean you guys have your hands full as it is with all of the details you already have left to finalize.

I shouldn't worry too much folks. I can't think of a single instance in history where a missed detail caused any real problems.

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Hi Terrence

I have a few questions....

How do you feel abt a few of the people stating that this is a "porn" or "pornography" site?

Do you or any of the other Linden's view Sl as that type of environment?

Would you please state why you or the others have this opnion?

Also by turning kids under 18 loose on the grid in what you all state will be a safe environment is this to clean up SL's image??

Thank you in advance for taking the time to answers these few questions. It helps me and others understand why there will be a merger.

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Well this 17 year old just confirmed my belief that children should not be in the game. Im an avid player of World of Warcraft and Secondlife. They are completely different games and you should not even try to compare them. They are nothing like each other. So take your nerd raging juvenile butt back to the G rated world of warcraft where it belongs. This kind of rant is exactly the reason I choose not to interact with children in any game. Even in World of Warcraft I choose to play with adults. Why should "kids" be allowed into what was only an adult world from the very beginning? What makes you entitled to our playground??? Its like a 5 year old throwing a fit when he doesn't get his way. I dont have sex in SL or participate in any X rated activity, however I still have no desire to have "children" or "young adults" in the game. I work with kids 40 hours a week, and have 3 children of my own. My SL time is my adult time~!

And its very apparent from his rant, that he has been inworld on the MG, and at 17 no less. He's already lied to gain access to the MG or he would have no idea what goes on. This is an ADULT game with ADULT content and we should not have to police ourselves or our behavior. By keeping the age limit at 18, LL is protecting themselves and its customers!

Honestly if you kids had any money to spend at all the teen grid would not be closing down. My only hope is that LL will see the outrage of its REAL paying customers and reverse their decision to allow minors into the main grid. If not the MG could very lose a large majority of its 'REAL PAYING CUSTOMERS"

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Funny, I had the opposite reaction to that post. I think what he or she is saying is absolutely correct. And it is ugly to see an adult address a young person in such a hostile manner. I feel sorry for the kids that have to spend 40 hours a week with someone as selfish and mean as you sound.

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Welcome back to the thread, Terrence.

Hi Cabbage, we have the majority of our initial plans confirmed, but still need to finalize a few points. The segments that we are speaking to are rather representative of our customer base, and we believe that speaking with them 4 months prior to the change will give us time to incorporate some of the feedback into future plans.

Please hurry up and announce whatever it is you've come up with. Lots of us have decisions to make.

I'd be very interested to hear which segments you consider to be "rather representative" of your customer base.

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"Please hurry up and announce whatever it is you've come up with. Lots of us have decisions to make."

I suspect LL know what that decision might entail, which is why they'll be in no rush to inform us.

"I'd be very interested to hear which segments you consider to be "rather representative" of your customer base."

Linden alts, Linden friends, the mythical "millions" who still haven't joined for fear of seeing a pixel penis, and anyone who has made positive noises over this move on the blogs and Jiras.

That after days we've had one Linden pop in, barely even Blondin style cherry pick points to respond to, and told us nothing of any measures being taken to make this bad idea a little less catastrophic, says all we need to know.

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I think what he or she is saying is absolutely correct. And it is ugly to see an adult address a young person in such a hostile manner. I feel sorry for the kids that have to spend 40 hours a week with someone as selfish and mean as you sound.

See that, that right there is why you will never,ever, ever,ever get a grant to take care of children. Again you personally attack somebody using kids as your weapon of choice. You can’t help yourself. Again you demonstrate that they are just tools for you and you don’t actually listen to or care about them at all.

First the child apparently doesn’t understand that people who have businesses that have a certain degree of success cash in their lindens for real money, making it a little bit more than a game. You for example intend to pay children to work for you. That makes it a little bit more than a game. You miss that.

The child curses and calls names, justifies stealing and actually explains, what she thinks, is a surefire way to keep stealing if you get caught and banned, and rails on about sluts and whores and all of that gets by you. Do you know why? Because you talk exactly the same way.

The only thing she didn’t do was talk about bashing a woman’s brains in but a few weeks in your school I have no doubt that would be next. The fact that you are the lead cheerleader for the merge shows just how much of a mistake it really is.

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Sep 1, 2010 12:35 AM Nany Kayo says in response to Kira Wyx:

Funny, I had the opposite reaction to that post. I think what he or she is saying is absolutely correct. And it is ugly to see an adult address a young person in such a hostile manner. I feel sorry for the kids that have to spend 40 hours a week with someone as selfish and mean as you sound.

This is interesting. I reviewed the original post by the teen that you support. Do you stand by that statement and say that you find the post by Zero Cabassoun: to be "absolutely correct" and everything in there is laudable?

So, your stance on content theft is that it's ok?

The teen also advocated abusing the anonymous accounts currently allowed to continue illegal theft of content. These are the same anonymous accounts that you were speaking against just a few post up. Sad. You were on the verge of making a reasonable point and were doing a fair job of supporting it and then you contradict yourself before the day was out. And you were doing so well, too.

Everything else this Zero person says is ok?

Yep, you are the sort of person we need around kids.

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Wow! As rants go that's a great one ... and an abusive rant too! Have you REALLY read these posts? All the adults are bashing you teens huh? I'd look again if I were you. One of the most repeated concerns is not about people wanting to have sex everywhere in SL - it about the few adults who will be attracted to SL solely to meet, befriend and groom kids. We adults know that SL isn't a perfect place. Yeah, some of us play some pretty intense sex games here. This is not some sweeping statement that says every adult is a pervert. In fact, those people who DO engage in the more intense sexual activities here have almost always kept those activities private and they do not consider themselves to be perverted at all - rather, they consider themselves to be open-minded and adventurous. The majority of the BDSM communities in SL have always kept their activities apart from the rest of SL - even before adult regions were imposed on us. I think the general feeling has been that they are only interested in new people joining these activities who have a genuine interest. The tiny fraction of people who did not have boundaries around such activities still behave the same way - they ignore simple rules of etiquette and push their activities down the throats of others. Maturity and respect for others are not qualities all adults have. Now this leads us to those concerns for the safety of teens in SL. You will find that almost every adult here is concerned about this and that includes those who never engage in sexual activities, right through to those who frequent dungeons and orgies. It is a concern for parents and for adults who don't have children. We have seen people coming to SL and engaging in activities such as sexual role-play with child avatars and it is something that has sickened the entire SL community. At worst, it can lead to these people wanting to recreate these activities in real life and at best, it harms the reputation of Second Life and its residents. No one here - not even those blinkered individuals who are saying this merger is going to be a good thing - are going to be happy if even one under 18 is sexually assaulted because a paedophile discovers it's easy to pretend to be an under 18 here and manages to meet a child in real life.

Now remember what I said about some adults here not having boundaries or respect for others and being immature? Well, these are the idiots who wander around PG sims naked with freebie cocks. The vast majority of us here, find these folks either offensive or just plain stupid, but seeing as SL had always been an adult environment with total freedom to do what you want, we took such behaviour as the price of that freedom. These are the same jerks, who see a pretty avie and IM them with messages like 'ur hawt i wanna f*** u', and expect that pick up line to turn a person on. Now, way back when I was fairly new, I made clothes and looked for mall space. Because of my lack of understanding about malls, I did a search and just headed out to look at the most popular malls. They turned out to all be set on nude beach sims and upon arrival all I found were loads of naked noob guys who bombarded my IM box with wonderful pick up lines like the above example. Their spelling was atrocious - pretty much like yours is. This led me to believe that the majority of these naked guys were no older than 20 at most! These are also the very people who have never age verified, which to me, again indicates that they are probably under age anyway. Same with griefers - they all seem to be very immature and I strongly suspect that the majority are under 18. This doesn't mean that every person in SL who behaves like a jerk is under 18, or even under 21 for that matter. I have met some seriously abusive people who are over 40 here. The point is, that most teens are immature and that is how teenagers are - I was the same when I was 16 - I was a horrible know-it-all who sulked and thought the only purpose adults had was to make my life miserable.

What it boils down to is that the adult residents of SL HAVE cleaned up their collective acts - many always have. Very few adult males here walk around naked. Those that do, keep it to specific areas and do not impose such things on other adults - never mind on teenagers or children. It is this same sense of responsibility and hope that we can create a good name and a positive image for SL that leads most of us to be opposed to this merger. And if you look over the postings, you will often see people saying that the closure of the teen grid is terribly unfair on the teens who have invested money and time there.

This is not adults against teenagers in the way you think it is. For sure, the adults don't want to be walking on egg shells trying to not offend teenagers. However, you DID made reference to being quick to report people who offend you when you are on the main grid. You are not the first teenager here to state this - in fact I have had one abuse report me for making valid points here that in no way labelled teens as idiots or expressed any hatred towards teens. Again - an overly sensitive teen made threats to get their own way and when that didn't work, sulked some complaint to LL about me. Hitting the AR button should be a last resort when an issue cannot be resolved or there is a genuine case of someone being abusive. Using it because you are overly sensitive is not the way to do it. Doing so, just proves that you are not anywhere near mature enough to be a part of the Second Life community. In 4 years, I have filed maybe 9 or 10 abuse reports, mostly in context with being an officer in an area and filing them over griefer attacks. Only once have I filed an abuse report over someone's sexual conduct here and I never got a response, even though the person in question had been banned several times for similar conduct. My only recourse was to contact a friend who is a Linden (yes, there ARE some nice Lindens about) and he was able to offer advice and promised to keep an eye on the offender.

So the people you are telling to 'keep it in their pants' are probably the same age as you are. And let's be honest, you're statement that you are mature is just your own personal delusion, because there is nothing in your post that is even remotely mature - especially calling all the adults here sluts and whores. What you have done, is mark yourself as an offensive, selfish troublemaker and if you are the yardstick by which we are to measure teenagers on the main grid, this rant does nothing to make the real adults any more confident about teenagers being in SL. I will be muting you on the main grid, as I'm sure most people here will be doing.

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Directed @ Terrence Linden

Hi Terrance, nice to see a Linden post on this page.

Before you run off with your notes, pad and pen would you please be kind enough to address the major concerns raised within this thread on this subject of teens in the main grid.

Many thanks, kind regards etc etc

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wow, you really are obsessed with me.

btw, I received notice of a $16,000 grant award for 2011 yesterday. I've got a couple more applications out. We should be ok.

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